[Diligent]

Originally Posted by RonB

Diligent, you need to be more restrained on the trigger my friend with that sort of jugular approach you may run off a truth seeker that is having difficulties. I've been through much so I have a thick skin but I appreciate CIVIL DISCOURSE.

I'm more than happy to drop this, but since you keep trying to admonish me, allow me to demonstrate why I did not regard your original post as a sincere question by underlining parts of your initial post:

Can someone justify through Scripture (not through fallen man) for not observing the Sabbath on the seventh day? I don't find it, I have found lots of Scripture twisting going on but I haven't found any true justification. This is serious business since it is in the Commandments. Ignorance may be one thing, but willful disobedience is not acceptable.

So now, if in fact this Commandment should be observed (since it is, after all, a Commandment), then how? I'm really searching here so let us reason together.

Your question was full of things you have already determined are true (ie, "This IS serious, since IT IS, willful disobedience." Add to that the implication that people who do not observe the Sabbath are "scripture twisting" and it's hard to imagine what exactly the "question" is -- it reads like a demand to defend.

And you've gone several posts now without commenting on all the scripture that has been provided -- are we here to reason amongst ourselves? What say you?

Now, if I've totally misjudged your initial post, I will gladly say so right here in public after you deal with the Scriptures that have been presented. But I can not help it -- I've been at this too long not to get suspicious when I see posts that look like yours. It sounds just like someone who is hung up on Saturdays trying to stir up a fight over the Sabbath. If you aren't claiming to observe the Sabbath, then good -- otherwise, please provide the Scripture you use to back up your implication that not observing the Sabbath is willful disobedience.

[George]

Originally Posted by RonB

There Luke, you have it, a better formulated question and thank you Bro Parrish for a reasoned and calm reply. I didn't come on this forum to be flamed, my question is sincere, I have no guile. I tried various searches because I knew beyond a doubt that this subject must have been discussed many times on this forum but I wasn't able to come up with anything.

Diligent, you need to be more restrained on the trigger my friend with that sort of jugular approach you may run off a truth seeker that is having difficulties. I've been through much so I have a thick skin but I appreciate CIVIL DISCOURSE.

Thank you,
Ron

RonB,

This is probably one of the most tolerant Forums on Bible issues you can find on the NET. But on the other hand at least once a week we get these "one issue" people who join the AV1611 Forums, and we have no idea whether they are Christians or not.

Your first "Thread" on the Forum raises suspicions, because, instead of coming on and giving us a personal testimony about yourself, you start with a question on a topic that you should have settled long ago - that is, if you spent much time studying the Bible.

You see we know nothing about you, for instance: Do you have a Seventh Day Adventist background?; or are you acquainted with British Israelism?; or perhaps you have been influenced by the World Wide Church of God?

Without a personal testimony (from your lips to our ears - so to speak), we have no idea who you are, and whether you are sincerely looking for the truth or just another "trouble-maker" (and we get our share every week) looking for a "platform" to expound on whatever "pet doctrine" that may have caught their fancy.

Diligent answered your inquiry with Scripture (rightly divided and in context); you have yet to answer him, instead you came back with:

"No Brandon, don't be so quick to get personal, I'm ASKING for some Scripture here, okay? Some sound reasoning, some calm reasoning, some DISCOURSE, I'm not taking any position but this has certainly been on my mind and don't think this issue hasn't been taken up by other scholars and is coming back. Not so much in the legalistic sense either but as one of the commandments to be observed so if you don't mind take a breath."

WHY are you so touchy? WHY are you so easily provoked? WHY didn't you overlook his "tone", if you didn't like the manner in which he answered you, and at least deal with the "substance" of his reply and ANSWER HIS COMMENTS and the Scriptures he presented, instead of going off on a private little "funk"?

Instead of dealing with Brandon's reply, you ignored his comments and then "flattered" some of the other brethren who answered you the way you preferred (or demand). But for someone who is supposedly earnestly searching for the truth, you have yet to reply to any of the comments made by any of the brethren who have taken the time to answer your question.

Since you posted your Thread: "Sabbath observance", 12 hours have passed and several of the brethren have responded to your question and you have yet to respond to a single one of their comments, except to compliment them on the "nice manner" {} in which they responded! You said you wanted "some DISCOURSE" - Well DISCOURSE then; 12 hours is plenty of time to at least answer some of the comments made by the brethren in response to you inquiry! {Just exactly what are you trying to accomplish?}

You have gotten several answers - are you going to respond, or are you going to keep on criticizing the Administrator of the Forum, because (poor thing) he didn't respond to you in an "acceptable manner"? That is - "acceptable" to you?

For someone who claims have a "thick skin" you seem awfully "thin-skinned' to me!

You will notice that I haven't attempted to answer your question, because, at 66 years of age, if you aren't able to discern between "the Jew" (Israel); "the Gentile"; and "the church" [1Corinthians 10:32] - chances are you never will.

You claim that your not "new" to the Bible, but this is an issue that you should have settled years ago. (I settled it over 40 years ago) If you're not "new" to the Bible - WHERE have you been? WHO have you been "studying" under? {Do you see WHY your personal testimony might be of some help to us?}

If you are sincere, you will start to answer and reply to the comments made by the brethren. If you are "disingenuous" you will go off in a "huff", playing the "victim" to those mean ole intolerant Bible "thumpers" on The AV1611 Bible Forums.

[George]

Aloha all,

Well, it's over 48 hours since RonB posted his Thread about the Sabbath:

"Can someone justify through Scripture (not through fallen man) for not observing the Sabbath on the seventh day?"

He said he wanted "DISCOURSE", but the only "discourse" that he shared with us was his criticism of Brandon (for his tone), and his "flattering" some of the brethren (who tried to "discourse" with him) for a nicer tone or attitude.

PLEASE NOTICE:

Brandon (Diligent) answered him three times.
Parrish answered him once.
Luke answered him once.
Kiwi Christian answered him once.
Chette 777 answered him once.

RonB claimed he was looking for "some DISCOURSE":

"No Brandon, don't be so quick to get personal, I'm ASKING for some Scripture here, okay? Some sound reasoning, some calm reasoning, some DISCOURSE, I'm not taking any position but this has certainly been on my mind and don't think this issue hasn't been taken up by other scholars and is coming back. Not so much in the legalistic sense either but as one of the commandments to be observed so if you don't mind take a breath."

Not counting Brandon's 3 replies, four other people replied (in a manner acceptable to RonB) and he has yet (48 hours later) to engage in the "discourse" he claimed he was looking for!

I made no attempt to "discourse" with RonB, mainly because of his attitude towards Brandon.

After dealing with "Christians" for over 50 years, I am always suspicious of a "Christian" who's interest is in OBSERVING SOMETHING [Matthew 23:23 & Luke 11:42]; who says they have studied the Bible, and yet are still hung-up over "the first principles of the oracles of God" {an inablity to discern between the Jew, the Gentile, and the church of God}; and who claims to be a Christian, but is reluctant to give their personal testimony.

In his biography (listed on the Forum) RonB said: "About myself? Not important but I think I'm among friends here." How a person got saved is always important! And where they have been after they got saved will reveal a whole lot about a person. We know nothing about the man or his background, but one thing is obvious - contrary to what he said, he's thin-skinned and has "a chip on his shoulder".

In my closing remarks to RonB I stated:

"If you are sincere, you will start to answer and reply to the comments made by the brethren. If you are "disingenuous" you will go off in a "huff", playing the "victim" to those mean ole intolerant Bible "thumpers" on The AV1611 Bible Forums."

It remains to be seen whether RonB is "disengenuous" or not; and whether he will join the ranks of the kooks, crazies, and crackpots that regularly show up on the Forum about once a week or so!

Contrast RonB's "stealth approach" and "hyper-sensitive attitude", and Tonybones' open declaration of who he is; his background; and his willingness to openly declare what he believes. I may disagree over some issues with brother "bones", but one thing's for certain - he has given a clear testimony to having been saved, and he has been open about his background and where he's been since he got saved.

There's a whole lot to be said for someone who is honest and above board, and who has NO GUILE!

[chette777]

yes George I had expected to hear back from him concerning the scriptures I gave him either to the positive or negative. But nada, nil, nothing from RonB.

Maybe he really isn't for discussing just making punches and runny off to his corner. I think we all did as he wanted

But was it enough is he on tract now concerning the Sabbath observance? at least he could do is answer whether those scriptures were satisfactory enough. Or is he just gaining scriptures that we use to go against the sabbath day requirement under law for the Jews as a requirement for the body of Christ today. so he can try and debunk it on another forum somewhere?

Seems he is a Sabbath Day observing Adventist, COC or British Israelite.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by RonB

There Luke, you have it, a better formulated question and thank you Bro Parrish for a reasoned and calm reply. I didn't come on this forum to be flamed, my question is sincere, I have no guile. I tried various searches because I knew beyond a doubt that this subject must have been discussed many times on this forum but I wasn't able to come up with anything.

Diligent, you need to be more restrained on the trigger my friend with that sort of jugular approach you may run off a truth seeker that is having difficulties. I've been through much so I have a thick skin but I appreciate CIVIL DISCOURSE.

Thank you,
Ron

Ron, it's very hard to judge the tone of a text message. Not all of us are flaming you. We can be a bit touchy on the subject of the law, give yourself a chance to just read and digest the information you asked for. I add my welcome to you to the forum with the rest.

Grace and peace

Tony

[BornAgainBibleBeliever514]

Well, it looks like Ron might not be back after all. Perhaps he read these scriptures and was convicted. Let's trust that continued prayer for him will bear fruit.
Now, I recently came across someone in my city who advertised a Bible study group, so naturally, I inquired, and ended up making a new friend. We talked at length on the phone for 3 hours+ the other night. He's actually a microbiology PhD at McGill and a creationist! So we had lots to talk about on that. But it also turns out that he's an SDA.
We ha a really great conversation about doctrine, using scriptures back and forth. He remained open-minded and agreed that the scriptures alone should be his final authority. I told him we should pick one or two topics, and stick to them alone for our discussion, so we don't get too sidetracked, and of course we picked Sabbath observance.
So, I'm getting drawn into this discussion with a person all over again, but he seems to have a good attitude, and I even made some points about the Bible versions that he agreed with!
So, I've borrowed a few of the texts from this thread, along with tons of others I've gathered, but I wanted to share one article on an ex-SDA website that I found to be very beneficial.
I'm giving him this article along with other scriptures, I'll let you all know how it goes.
Hey, at least I know he's more or less free to come to a Bible-believing IFB church on Sunday, assuming he doesn't mind accepting the mark of the beast, of course!

http://www.nonsda.org/study7.shtml

[katie ha-lakh]

This may be going off-course in this thread but I'll be quick. I just wanted to commend "BABB 514" in particular for his attitude toward RonB in that we really don't know what he is doing right now. Hopefully, searching the scriptures.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Luke

A more reasonable question would be

"What Biblical evidence is there for observing ANY Sabbath day, whether the sixth or seventh day, or any other holyday, by the New Testament Christian".

Luke, I had a book contained the observances of one of the early philosopher/historians, I don't remember if it was Josephus or not but they made reference to early Christians rising on the first day of the week(Sunday) before they went to work, and gathering to sing hymms to Chrestus(Christ) who they worshipped as a God and was God.

I used to order books from a Bride Baptist church in Texas, a rather large one, who used this historical record and the passage in Hebrews to justify a Sunday "sabbath"

Excellent observation of yours too.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

[Luke]

Justin Martyr.. he refers to it as the First day and the Eighth day

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Luke

Justin Martyr.. he refers to it as the First day and the Eighth day

Thanks brother, I had this little book printed in England in like 1890 had all these quotations by the early historians and folks about the early church. One was a treatise aginst Christians by some Roman somebody or other accusing Christians of being atheists! Why? We don't have a "godshelf", a place in homes for little idols of Jupiter, Hera, Venus, Mars, etc. Of course the "gods" of Imperial Rome has been replaced by "saint's.

I live about 8 miles from a Hindu temple, they let you come inside and everything. The main area inside has a ledge up by the ceiling that goes around the interior of the building. I made a fair estimate of 3000 little statues of different gods, one of the worshipers told me there were 3400 of them.

Grace and peace

Tony