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#101
05-05-2009, 05:47 PM
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#102
05-05-2009, 06:05 PM
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Let's look at his allegations point by point: HYPER-DISPENSATIONALISM... Ruckman outlines the teachings of hyper-dispensationalism as follows: [1. There is a period of time called “THE GRACE OF GOD” which began in Acts 9 (Stam, Baker, Moore, Watkins) or in Acts 18 (O’Hare and others) or in Acts 28 (Bullinger) . . .] Yep, and the main and first one he left out was Sergius Saulus Paulus of Tarsus. [2. Water baptism is not for “THIS AGE” since “THIS AGE” began in Acts 9 or Acts 13 or Acts 18 or Acts 28.] This age began when Paul grafted the Gentiles into the Body, the olive tree, of that believing remnant of Israel and if you can show it, you can whip me or Dr. Ruckman or anyone else. [3. Bible-believing Baptists are heretics who do not follow PAULINE teaching (1 Ti. 1:16).] Yep, show me thread message # and paragraph where I said or even remotely alluded to anyone in this thread who did not agree with my teaching on water baptism was a "herectic". [4. Since Paul did not COMMAND anyone to be baptized, it is UNSCRIPTURAL.] Yep, this statement is absolutely correct and is one of the foundations of my stand and walk in Christ, Christ sent Tony "Bones"Howard not to baptize but to be a minister of the reconciliation and an ambassador for Christ, preaching the gospel of Christ, preaching the word and that word rightly divided. [5. Since Paul was not “SENT TO BAPTIZE,” water baptism is PRE-PAULINE (1 Cor. 1).] Ah, duuh, Leviticus 8, John the Baptist, Christ's disciples, Peter, Philip; it sure is "pre-Pauline", and as I have demonstrated from the rightly divided Scriptures, it's just not POST-Pauline. [6. The “ONE BAPTISM” of Ephesians 4 automatically cancels water baptism.] It sure does because if it don't, then there are two Lords, two faiths, two Gods, and two Fathers of all. The principle works both ways. Hung out to dry? Brother Parrish, I'm drippin' wet, soaked to the gills, in the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, I wouldn't be in this forum if I wasn't. Grace and peace Tony |
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#103
05-05-2009, 06:05 PM
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I'm not in any way angry at you, but we won't agree on this, and I would prefer you did not address me directly any more on the issue. My last replies were to another member not to you, and anything I post from here on will serve as a "counter-balance" to the views you are being allowed to publish on the forum, simply for the express purpose of DOCTRINAL CLARITY. I'm not trying to be rude, but I would say the same thing to ANYONE ANYWHERE who asked me endless questions about strange doctrines. (Titus 3:9) As I stated early on, may God bless you as you seek His truth on this issue brother. P.S. I noticed you removed the signature you had earlier called "Church Splitter?" never mind, maybe it was a figment of my imagination... 
Last edited by Bro. Parrish; 05-05-2009 at 06:22 PM. |
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#104
05-05-2009, 06:36 PM
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Tbones,
You have been quite busy answering a lot of posts. I hope your finger is not hurting to bad. Ge 3:21 ¶ Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. I could never see the sacrifice except by implication. for God never says how he made them coats the Hebrew word is the same for "make" in Genesis 1:26. . . Let us make man in our image, . . . No I don't see water in every Baptism in the NT. for example Roms 6 baptism is spiritual not physical Baptism though many use the verses when doing water baptism. I do divide rightly the different types of baptisms in the NT. I did see types in Lev and Matthew The priest were washed before the sacrifice was made. the Apostles were Baptized before Jesus Was sacrificed. But I can find no natural cross reference that KJV is so natural in having to connect these together. I am not a Baptist and I don't wear Baptist glasses. I wear Biblical glasses. as I said in my first text I do not promote anyone to get baptized I let that be up to the Believer. I don't call it the first step of Obedience as Baptist call it. and I don't see any necessary reason for Baptism or a direct command from Paul to do so. But as I said Paul did Baptize and I will too if that is what the person wants. I just make sure they are doing it as Identification. Jesus didn't get baptized to cleans himself from sin or for remission or to prove repentance, but in so doing he did Identify with sinful man. the only time the word wash and Baptism are used in the same sentence is in Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. and it has only to do with Paul not anyone else. Just as We don't see "water" in every Baptism we should not see "wash" in ever baptism either. Roms 6 lets us see that the baptism was not washing but identification to his death. Roms 6:3 and 4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. it is not the death of Jesus that cleanses us for his death is substitutionary for us. that is our identification in baptism into his death. If there were a natural cross reference between John's Baptism and Lev 8:6 I might consider it but seeing that God did not preserve his word with that connection I will not consider the type as valid to make the two the same. I do however appreciate you taking time to answer and as I said whether you believe in Baptism for the Body today or not. It is not an issue to me. I only tried to answer your question on why John's Baptism and Lev8:6 are not the same. and the reason I can see they are not is that there is nothing alike not in Biblical events, words or in typology. Last edited by chette777; 05-05-2009 at 06:41 PM. |
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#105
05-05-2009, 06:42 PM
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The U/U have their own bible, the Concordant Literal Translation which is another version of Vaticanus. We hear all the time about the KJV translators were "amillenial baby sprinkling Calvinists". Right. They produced a Bible teaches premillenial return of the Lord for the church and no baby spinkling. In contrast the RV of 1885 and ASV of 1901 BOTH had Unitarians on the translating commitees and I won;t go into lesbian/homosexual antics with the NIV. Grace and peace brother  Tony |
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#106
05-05-2009, 07:05 PM
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Thanks bro. Parrish...back to our focus...
God bless you |
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#107
05-05-2009, 07:30 PM
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Re: "Is water baptism for today?"
Part of Brother Parrish's quote from Post #92:
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Please carefully re-read the Scriptures that you quoted. Paul is not saying that "John's was a baptism of preparation looking FORWARD to Jesus' death". Paul clearly said: "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." [Acts 19:4] The "Gospel" (the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) is not mentioned here, and is not in view. Instead John was saying to "the people" (the nation of Israel - Hebrews/Jews ONLY) that "they" (ISRAEL) - "should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." At the time of John's ministry the Israelites (Hebrews/Jews) could not possibly have been required "to believe" in something that had not yet occured. At the time of John's ministry the Israelites were required "to believe on Him" - i.e. that He was indeed their Messiah & King. He hadn't been crucified YET- He hadn't died for any one's sins YET. How could they have been required to believe in something that hadn't been REVEALED to anyone YET? While I believe that water Baptism is for the believer today - I can not agree with your comment: "John's was a baptism of preparation looking FORWARD to Jesus' death". The Scriptures clearly states exactly WHAT John's Baptism was for: John the Baptist's "ministry" had no more "connection" to a modern Baptist preacher's "ministry" than Moses or any of the other Hebrew Prophets in the Old Testament do. John the Baptist was a Hebrew Prophet to the nation of Israel only: Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. John the Baptist was a Hebrew Prophet to the nation of Israel only - who went before the Lord "in the spirit and power of Elias". Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. John the Baptist was a Hebrew Prophet to the nation of Israel only - who was: Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Mark 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. John 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. The Lord Jesus Christ was baptized in water to "fulfill all righteousness" [Matthew 3:15] and so that: "He should be made manifest to Israel". To which John the Baptist testified. [John 1: 29-34] Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. John the Baptist was baptizing "the baptism of repentance" (the same "baptism" that Apollos preached years later- Acts 18:25) and that is why he (John) objected to baptizing Jesus - because He (the Lord) was sinless and had no sins to "repent" of! Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. The main "purpose" for baptizing the Lord Jesus Christ in water was to reveal ("manifest") Him to the nation of Israel: John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? 26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; 27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. 28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. John the Baptist testified that the Lord Jesus Christ was "the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world" [John 1:29,36], but his Baptism was a Baptism of/unto repentance for the nation of Israel (Hebrews/Jews) ONLY, and had nothing to do with: "a baptism of preparation looking FORWARD to Jesus' death". John's Baptism had to do with MANIFESTING (revealing) Jesus Christ to Israel (as their Messiah & King); it had to do with calling Israel (after 400 years of "SILENCE" and NO PROPHETS) to "REPENTANCE" (turning away from their sins and turning unto God); it had to do with preparing ("making straight") the people of Israel so that they would receive their Messiah & King; it had to do with a lot of things {i.e. "the fullness of time"}, but every single one of them was in relation to Israel - NOT the church. While I believe that brother Tony is wrong about water Baptism not being for the New Testament believer (I know of NO commandment "PROHIBITING" the practice); I would not "break fellowship" with him unless - unless he became "obtuse" and/or overbearing on the subject. I have treated brother Tony with "kid gloves" because, although we disagree on this issue, his conduct has been exemplary on this Forum, and other than letting it be known as to what he believes, he did not "push" the issue. I believe there are some members on the Forum who may be of the Pentecostal/Charismatic "persuasion", but who have chosen not to get involved in a "knock-down" drag-out argument over their convictions. Again, as long as they don't "push" their beliefs on the rest of us, I have no problem with them participating on the Forum. Brother Tim and I are "far apart" on some issues, and have had a few dust-ups, but there is one thing that I am "pretty sure of", and that is we are in agreement on the major doctrines (the Fundamentals) and he is my brother in the Lord. Someday God is going to "straighten" both of us out - in regards to where we were "OFF" on our doctrine. Until then I shall endeavor to treat him with the love and respect that is due him as a fellow brother in Christ and as a member of God's household. I will do the same for brother Tony, unless (or until) he gets out of hand. |
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#108
05-06-2009, 12:10 AM
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Let's ALL agree that the topic here is not really Tony, and it's not me either. It's believer's water baptism in today's churches—and since that has been positioned as being UNSCRIPTURAL and/or part of the MOSAIC LAW by most if not all Ultradispensationalists—that is what I am addressing. And let's face it; the issue is not always only baptism, it should be noted that Ultradispensationalism can often come packaged with some other strange teachings. For example some of the adherents to Ultradispensationalism reject not only the ordinance of baptism with water but also the Lord’s Supper, proclaiming that the church of today is no longer to participate in ANY kind of ordinance. Some adherents of Ultradispensationalism also officially reject church attendance completely, such as Otis Q. Sellers in his pamphlet named "Christian Individualism." There are often many subtle folds to Bullingerism and its sister doctrines, and I am certainly NOT trying to project any or all of them onto ANY member of this forum, but I suspect that some of the new believers here are perhaps not aware of the complete history of this teaching, so I simply put it out there and let them decide for themselves. Others have had far more negative opinions on it over the years, as shown by the comments from Dr. Harry Ironside: "Many Bullingerites boldly advocate the sleep of the soul between death and resurrection, the annihilation of the wicked, or, as we have seen, universal salvation of all men and demons, the denial of the eternal Sonship of the Lord Jesus Christ, and, gravest of all, the personality of the Holy Spirit. All of these evil doctrines find congenial soil in Bullingerism. Once men take up with this system there is no telling how far they will go, and what their final position will be in regard to the great fundamental truths of Christianity. It is because of this that one needs to be on his guard, for it is as true of systems as it is of teachers, "By their fruits ye shall know them." Having had most intimate acquaintance with Bullingerism as taught by many for the last forty years, I have no hesitancy in saying that its fruits are evil. It has produced a tremendous crop of heresies throughout the length and breadth of this and other lands, it has divided Christians and wrecked churches and assemblies without number; it has lifted up its votaries in intellectual and spiritual pride to an appalling extent, so that they look with supreme contempt upon Christians who do not accept their peculiar views; and in most instances where it has been long tolerated, it has absolutely throttled Gospel effort at home and sown discord on missionary fields abroad. So true are these things of this system that I have no hesitancy in saying it is an absolutely Satanic perversion of the truth. Instead of rightly dividing the Word, I shall seek to show that these teachers wrongly divide the Word, and that their propaganda is anything but conducive to spirituality and enlightenment in divine things." http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/wrongly1.html Last edited by Bro. Parrish; 05-06-2009 at 12:16 AM. |
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#109
05-06-2009, 09:35 AM
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Re: "Is water baptism for today?"
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Not to beat a dead dog here, but - You missed "my point" completely. It's pretty "obvious" to me also "that Paul indicated John was pointing forward to Him which should come AFTER him, that is Christ Jesus." - I never denied, nor did I ignore, what Paul said about John's Baptism. What is NOT "obvious" is your statement: "John's was a baptism of preparation looking FORWARD to Jesus' death". I demonstrated (from Scripture) exactly what purpose John's Baptism served - the purpose was: "that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water." [John 1:31] The "he" is the Lord Jesus - and explains WHO it is that was "to be made manifest (revealed) to Israel"; "that he should be made manifest to Israel ," explains WHAT the purpose of John's Baptism was for; the "therefore" explains explains WHY John came Baptizing. I repeat: "John's Baptism had to do with MANIFESTING (revealing) Jesus Christ to Israel (as their Messiah & King); it had to do with calling Israel (after 400 years of "SILENCE" and NO PROPHETS) to "REPENTANCE" (turning away from their sins and turning unto God); it had to do with preparing ("making straight") the people of Israel so that they would receive their Messiah & King; it had to do with a lot of things {i.e. "the fullness of time"}, but every single one of them was in relation to Israel - NOT the church." John's Baptism WAS NOT: "a baptism of preparation looking FORWARD to Jesus' death". The Scriptures clearly demonstrate that John's Baptism had nothing to do with Jesus' death - it had to do with revealing ("manifest") to the nation of Israel, their MESSIAH and KING, and "preparing the way" for Him (as Israel's King). When the Lord Jesus Christ entered Jerusalem for the last time (BEFORE His crucifixion and death, burial, and resurrection), He was NOT entering as the CRUCIFIED SAVIOUR - He was entering (and presenting Himself) as their "KING" [John 12:15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.] in FULFILLMENT of of the JEWISH Prophet Zechariah's prophecy about the nation of Israel's coming KING - [Zechariah 9:9]; and John's Baptism was in preparation for that "event" - NOT in: "preparation looking FORWARD to Jesus' death". We must "rightly divide the word of truth" by always keeping in mind the difference between the "historical", "spiritual", and "doctrinal" applications, and NOT read into the Scriptures what may appear to be "obvious" to us - based on our perspective and understanding of what occurred AFTER an "event" in the Bible, i.e. the crucifixion, death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour. The Bible is NOT all about the church, or about us (Christians). God has a plan for Israel (Hebrews/Jews); and He has kept the promises that He made to Abraham (concerning his seed), and will continue to keep and fulfill them. And He will keep and fulfill the promises that He made to David (concerning His Kingdom) - hopefully in the near future. By God's Grace and His Mercy - we have been "grafted into" the Olive tree. We (the "wild" olive branches) were grafted in because of Israel's (the "natural" branches) "UNBELIEF" - We've got nothing to boast about (especially in the condition the churches are in today!) God is about ready to "pick up" with Israel where He "left off" nearly 2,000 years ago (as He was entering Jerusalem as their King). God is about done with us (the church). We (Christians) have "proven" to be just as hard-hearted, rebellious, stubborn, unfaithful, and unbelieving as the Jews at Christ's first coming {Read Revelation 3:14-22}. God has concluded us "ALL under sin" and He has concluded us ALL "in unbelief" to prove a point - and that is: No MATTER WHAT God has done (i.e. His different Covenants) in relation to His people (His saints - BEFORE the Law; DURING the Law {Israelites}; and AFTER the Law {Christians}), We ALL have PROVEN that - we are just NO GOOD! [Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;] The "point" being that without God's Grace, and His Love, and His Mercy - NONE of us (saints - Hebrews/Jews or Christians) are worthy; NONE of us have "measured up" to God's requirements; NONE of us deserves the blessings that He has bestowed upon us. Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. |
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#110
05-06-2009, 09:46 AM
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George thanks for your comments, I would love to hear an equally well structured and scriptural comment from you on why you think water baptism is for today.
Last edited by Bro. Parrish; 05-06-2009 at 09:56 AM. |
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