Originally Posted by jerry

Sad - what help is it to you to water down the Word of God by mixing it with corrupt translations from corrupt texts? You can't learn the truth by mixing it with error.

Oh, don't worry about it. It's more important to have the Holy Ghost teach you than to have a ("Politically correct?" LOL) Bible. Remember the Philippians ref? Christ is still preached.

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by MDOC

Oh, don't worry about it. It's more important to have the Holy Ghost teach you than to have a ("Politically correct?" LOL) Bible. Remember the Philippians ref? Christ is still preached.

Again with the cart before the horse!

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So, if you don't have the record of the word to begin with, how is it brought to your remembrance?

Originally Posted by Diligent

Again with the cart before the horse!

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So, if you don't have the record of the word to begin with, how is it brought to your remembrance?

It's not "cart before the horse" if you've established the KJV as your standard, but even if you don't, the Holy Ghost will teach you. But if you do, there's no prohibition to comparing scripture with scripture and there's no fear of personal "corruption" because you've already established a standard.

Originally Posted by MDOC

But if you do, there's no prohibition to comparing scripture with scripture and there's no fear of personal "corruption" because you've already established a standard.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You would be better off comparing things within the Bible itself, precept upon precept - rather than running to other corrupted versions to try to help you understand the KJV (or whatever other version someone prefers).

Doing Bible study out of multiple modern versions is never going to give you a greater understanding of the Bible, but will in fact give you a lowest common denominator approach to the Bible (ie. eventually you will start throwing out specifics and stick with generalities - whatever they all have in common; however, where they differ will be discarded).

Originally Posted by jerry

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You would be better off comparing things within the Bible itself, precept upon precept - rather than running to other corrupted versions to try to help you understand the KJV (or whatever other version someone prefers).

Doing Bible study out of multiple modern versions is never going to give you a greater understanding of the Bible, but will in fact give you a lowest common denominator approach to the Bible (ie. eventually you will start throwing out specifics and stick with generalities - whatever they all have in common; however, where they differ will be discarded).

Touche, you're correct regarding comparing versions versus internal comparing (I used that to throw him off)

But actually... this verse is commonly understood to mean comparing the spiritual things under the Old Testament with the spiritual things under the New (which is perfectly valid): but this does not appear to be the apostle’s meaning. The word συγκρινοντες, which we translate "comparing," rather signifies conferring, discussing, or explaining; and the word πνευματικοις should be rendered to spiritual men, and not be referred to spiritual things. The passage therefore should be thus translated: Explaining spiritual things to spiritual persons. And this sense the following verse absolutely requires.

Originally Posted by MDOC

The word συγκρινοντες, which we translate "comparing," rather signifies conferring, discussing, or explaining; and the word πνευματικοις should be rendered to spiritual men, and not be referred to spiritual things. The passage therefore should be thus translated: Explaining spiritual things to spiritual persons. And this sense the following verse absolutely requires.

Explaining is different than comparing. I believe two primary applications are:

1) Comparing things within the Bible itself.
2) Comparing what someone says/teaches with the Word of God itself.

[Gord]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Hi Gord,

Brandon gave you a superb response to this, however one point has not been addressed.

Is this position historic to Robert Joyner ? Or does he actually claim that this is the historic position of the Bible believers, with emphasis on the writings of the early church writers and the Reformation confessions and textual analysis writers ?

If so, perhaps it deserves its own thread. My research has indicated that this is a fairly new position (less than 150 years) and thus only minimally historic. And that the Reformation position was clearly au contraire. And that the early church writers were far more in synch with the Reformation position than the "historic Joyner" position.

Maybe you could start by sharing any specific quotes he gives from before the 19th century. Thanks.

Shalom,
Steven

Thank you for that, however let me step up and let you know, I'm still on my first read through most of the old testament, and 2nd and 3rd read in the new testament. So I still have a level of basic understanding to soak up first.

Secondly, the Holy Spirit guided the pens of the original authors to write the words on the accepted medium of their time in the then used language by the author at the time of penning the Holy Spirits words.

The only affect the Holy Spirit had on the various versions, was to inspire the translators to perform their task of translation from their source of choice following their guidelines for translating at the historic time of the translation.

I can buy the fact that at the time of the reformation, my guess is there was a lot more prayer and guidance sought from the Holy Spirit by the translators to produce the final product as clearly and accurately as humanly possible given there understanding and technology of the day that I can give the accuracy edge to the KJV. Their historic human motivation was far greater then say the translators of the NASB whose original motivation firstly came from the Lockman foundation, I believe those translators asked for that same guidance from the Holy Spirit, but with far less intensity for the final product then did say the translators of the KJV.

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Which textual content are you trying to understand ? The Greek texts that claim that the ending of Mark, the Pericope Adultera, "God was manifest in the flesh .." and the Acts 8:37 baptism testimony and the Johannine Comma are all man's corruption (which is the Greek text that has gross errors like the swine marathon from Gerasa and Jesus saying he is not going to the feast).

Or do you desire the underlying source text of the King James Bible and the historic Reformation Bibles, that accepts and declare these beautiful verses and sections as God's word, inspired and pure scripture.

One is truth, one is error. On this level, there is no issue of translation whatsoever. There are times where we are called to:

..choose you this day whom ye will serve..Jushua 24:15

Shalom,
Steven

My main goal is to understand the basic content first, get the big picture, before I start worrying about periods, comma's and the like. That I know will come later. Your comments still give me much more food for thought, and I thank you.

Originally Posted by MDOC

Oh, don't worry about it. It's more important to have the Holy Ghost teach you than to have a ("Politically correct?" LOL) Bible. Remember the Philippians ref? Christ is still preached.

Context is always important. Paul is not saying he does not care how God's Word is changed or how someone says something (ie. whether it is true or not) - what he said was that it does not matter what someone's motives were in preaching about Christ, as long as they preached the truth about Christ. And the more mvs are watering down and changing the Word of God, the less truth about Him you are getting.

Originally Posted by jerry

Context is always important. Paul is not saying he does not care how God's Word is changed or how someone says something (ie. whether it is true or not) - what he said was that it does not matter what someone's motives were in preaching about Christ, as long as they preached the truth about Christ. And the more mvs are watering down and changing the Word of God, the less truth about Him you are getting.

I agree partially in that the chief error is not so much through error of doctrine but that of motive, but there will always be corruption of God's word. Basically, two streams of Bibles, one corrupt, one not. But God is greater than the corruption; the Holy Ghost is able to lead and teach even through a corrupt text, particularly for someone new to the scriptures. In other words, the corruption of versions are not deep enough to affect the basics of the Gospel. Line upon line, precept upon precept. First clean the inside of the cup and platter, then the outside will be clean, too.

Originally Posted by MDOC

Basically, two streams of Bibles, one corrupt, one not. But God is greater than the corruption; the Holy Ghost is able to lead and teach even through a corrupt text, particularly for someone new to the scriptures. In other words, the corruption of versions are not deep enough to affect the basics of the Gospel.

There is a big difference between having enough of the Bible unchanged to bring someone to salvation, and having enough changed that they will not be able to learn God's will for them each day. There is more at stake than just getting saved - we are also to live daily by the Word of God. If it is corrupted, it will affect my daily walk.

First clean the inside of the cup and platter, then the outside will be clean, too.

I have no idea why you keep quoting this verse in reference to modern Bible versions - unless you are trying to imply that those who take a stand solely on the KJV are hypocrites (which I believe is an unjust accusation - there certainly will be some hypocrites in whatever side someone takes on the issue, but that doesn't make all on one side hypocrites).