Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Secondly, it is dangerous to use anecdotal examples to define doctrine. For every situation where from the human point-of-view things have worked out, there are many where they have not. Anytime we violate God's perfect design for marriage, there are consequences, regardless of how "right" it appears.

I believe that those that have given examples have used scripture to back up the Biblical soundness of the exceptions given in the scriptures for a divorce.

We are to apply scripture to our lives and situations, correct?

You are right though that God's perfect design is that marriages remain whole. Although, you can't deny that man messed that up and that God gave examples of what to do when things get messed up. and yes, of course there are consequences suffered by all in a divorce, but then what. God gives us instruction on how to put the pieces back together. Do we ignore the instructions, because God's design of marriage has been destroyed by man?

[George]

Re: Post #190

I agree wholeheartedly! (I hope I didn't confuse you)

When the 2 parties are not guilty of sinning in regards to their first marriages, how can we hold them to a standard (or requirement) that most of us couldn't keep ourselves. God makes provision (The Lord Jesus Christ's death & shed blood) for our sins - if not, none of us of us would be worthy.

[Brother Tim]

There was a little more to the story that I left off. The man broke off his relationship with the girl when his guilt forced him. He told me that he repented before the LORD and quit the ministry. He went into secular work. When the current church called him, he thought that it was a signal from God that he had been forgiven, and was now ready to resume his ministry. I told him that I had a problem that he had kept it quiet, but his wife and his church had forgiven him, so it was not my call.

One of my questions is, assume that his wife chose to leave (oth being Christians) but his church kept him on, would his ministry be valid? By the way, his home church where he was ordained, and that had given him his license, revoked those.

[chette777]

you may use Matthew 18 in your church and inforce it. but many wont care they just go to another church if they will go to church at all after being kicked out or treated like a heathen.

I wanted to do Matthew 18 with a pastor who had lied. he just ignored me and said nothing. I even had witnesses of the event. what could be done? Nothing. he is still pastoring his church. I don't have any respect for him as a person. and he doesn't care I can't hurt him.

But the Lord sees all.

But if we were in the kingdom and he refused to hear and agknowledge his sin. Jesus on his throne would immeadiately judge and sentence and implement sentence. but Jesus doesn't do that today. because Matthew 18 is for the rule of conduct in the Kingdom not the church age.

That is what I mean that it wont work. no King to implement sentence.

[Brother Tim]

I'm curious. What parts, if any, of Matthew apply to now?

[pbiwolski]

You can apply anything that does NOT contradict with the Apostle Paul's epistles to the church.

But the book is a Jewish Gospel with the theme being the kingdom of heaven. You won't find much to apply doctrinally to the church, but you're sure to find much spiritual application from the parables and stories etc. as long as your application does NOT contradict a doctrine that Paul gives on the church.

[Brother Tim]

pbiwolski said: (underlining mine for emphasis)
You won't find much to apply doctrinally to the church, but you're sure to find much spiritual application

Could you further describe the difference between applying something doctrinally and applying something spiritually? Examples if possible.

[Brother Tim]

chette777 said:
because Matthew 18 is for the rule of conduct in the Kingdom not the church age

Are you saying that none of Jesus' teachings (doctrines) given in Matthew 18 apply today?

There is nothing in the Gospels or in the parables of Jesus that contradict Paul's or any other apostle's writings. There are some things that are fulfilled and some other things that are done away with - but no contradictions.

Funny how this applies to Peter in the church age:

Matthew 16:17-19 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Yet this supposedly does not:

Matthew 18:15-20 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

There are no contradictions - other NT passages teach local church discipline; this passage teaches the process, Just because some abuse or do not apply this passage correctly does not mean it is not specifically for the church.

[Brother Tim]

Jerry, I guess we need a new printing of the KJB with the parts that count for us marked differently. ( I'm soo confoosed! ) I am reminded of a statement I heard Bill O'Reilly once say. It went something like this. The Old Testament is just allegory; the parts of the New Testament where Jesus is speaking is the only factual truth, the other parts are just the commentary by men.
For me, I'll start at Genesis and read through to the Revelation, I'll believe every word, and accept that every word is there for me to know, every truth is there for me to understand, and that every teaching is there for me to obey.