[Forrest]

Originally Posted by PaulB

Hi forest/Amanda!

What I was getting at in a rather long-winded response was the fact that; yes God loves people (even His enemies), as the cross is the ultimate demonstration of that. But what I was attempting to get across was that workers of iniquity are highly displeasing to God because of His holy and righteous nature. Yes God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but He also has no pleasure in the lives that they choose to live. So it sounds to me that God’s hatred of sinners is seen in their final outcome, as they won’t be under eternal damnation as an act of His unconditional love for them!

We (as Christians) are sinners, but redeemed and thus under the forgiveness of God because of Christ’s finished work. As there are sinners out there who will always love their sin and reject the God who made them. People whose consciences are seared, others who have been handed over to their lusts and others who are (at the expense of their own free will) out there to hate God no matter what He says to them.

I think that the overall life of such a rebel will be the direct object of God’s wrath, judgement & damnation, which I see has a person whom God hates. The life of the sinner cannot be separated from the sinner himself and it is also key to approach a subject like this from God’s eternal prospective (which means that He see things outside of the boundaries of time). What I mean by that is that God decides whom He loves and hates from what His prospective not ours!

Hope this comes across a bit clearer

God bless

PaulB

It is clearer (somewhat). Based on your clarification, we are in agreement that God hates all the workers of iniquity.

You wrote: I think that the overall life of such a rebel will be the direct object of God’s wrath, judgement & damnation, which I see as a person whom God hates.

Brother Paul, in the quote below I do not understand why you are using the words "displeasing" or "no pleasure" when the Holy Bible says "hatest".

You wrote: But what I was attempting to get across was that workers of iniquity are highly displeasing to God because of His holy and righteous nature. Yes God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but He also has no pleasure in the lives that they choose to live. So it sounds to me that God’s hatred of sinners is seen in their final outcome, as they won’t be under eternal damnation as an act of His unconditional love for them!

Anyway, I think you also believe that God "hatest" all workers of iniquity who are not in Christ, is that right?

[Amanda S.]

But what I was attempting to get across was that workers of iniquity are highly displeasing to God because of His holy and righteous nature.

Bro. Paul careful not to water down the Scriptures here. Such a hard thing to say for us in this effiminate society we live in isn't it?

[Amanda S.]

Bro. Forrest,

Where do you get that in scripture? Remember, Psalms 5:5 says, "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Ya got me.

[Amanda S.]

Anyway, I think you also believe that God "hatest" all workers of iniquity who are not in Christ, is that right?

Bro. Forrest, I believe he's almost there...Just. So. Hard. To. Spit. It. Out.


Maybe if we can convince him to type it really fast then hit post while closing his eyes

[PaulB]

Come on you guys give me a break!

If I would have simply quoted Scripture verse that I believe to be true (which is all of them) it wouldn’t have helped you this way or that to understand what I was trying to tell you. And I certainly wasn’t attempting to even paraphrase Scripture let alone “water it down” – I was trying to express my point in simple words so that the general ethos of it was coming across without having to keep explaining it.

If you are asking me – do I believe the following:

Ps.5: 4-6 “For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.”

Then how do you expect me to say no? of course I believe that God hates the workers of iniquity! I was simply attempting to present my case in an understandable way rather than just saying “this is what I believe” – otherwise I knew that I would have to keep answering those who couldn’t understand why I believed what I was stating.

Now am I any clearer?

God bless

PaulB

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by PaulB

Come on you guys give me a break!

If I would have simply quoted Scripture verse that I believe to be true (which is all of them) it wouldn’t have helped you this way or that to understand what I was trying to tell you. And I certainly wasn’t attempting to even paraphrase Scripture let alone “water it down” – I was trying to express my point in simple words so that the general ethos of it was coming across without having to keep explaining it.

If you are asking me – do I believe the following:

Ps.5: 4-6 “For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.”

Then how do you expect me to say no? of course I believe that God hates the workers of iniquity! I was simply attempting to present my case in an understandable way rather than just saying “this is what I believe” – otherwise I knew that I would have to keep answering those who couldn’t understand why I believed what I was stating.

Now am I any clearer?

God bless

PaulB

No harm here, brother. And I appreciate you letting your nay be nay and your yea be yea.

[Amanda S.]

Bro. Forrest you asked:

I’m not convinced that now those of us who in Christ and are under grace should ever hate individuals who sin. Perhaps you know of a verse that instructs those of us who are saved, to hate the sinner.

No, I know not of any Scripture that says such.

[PaulB]

Thanks Bro Forrest – I always try and make my yea yea and nay nay but it is so easy to get misunderstood on a subject such as this – because if you were to ask me does God hate all sinners? And I say 100% absolutely yes! Then the next post goes on to say “but everyone is a sinner, EVEN THE REDEEMED” then I have to start re-addressing the entire issue from a completely different perspective. So in order to avoid endless posts I decided to give the best overall picture that was possible for me to do so. The trouble is, that the people who believe what I believe then think that I am skipping around the issue.

God bless

PaulB

[Amanda S.]

Originally Posted by PaulB

Thanks Bro Forrest – I always try and make my yea yea and nay nay but it is so easy to get misunderstood on a subject such as this – because if you were to ask me does God hate all sinners? And I say 100% absolutely yes! Then the next post goes on to say “but everyone is a sinner, EVEN THE REDEEMED” then I have to start re-addressing the entire issue from a completely different perspective. So in order to avoid endless posts I decided to give the best overall picture that was possible for me to do so. The trouble is, that the people who believe what I believe then think that I am skipping around the issue.

God bless

PaulB

Bro. Paul, I know exactly what you are speaking of. Agreed.

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by Amanda S.

Bro. Tony, I appreciate your kind words. I indeed do not condone hateful street preaching nor would it be advantageous in winning them to Christ.
However, after much diccussion with my husband and examining the Scriptures Paul B. perfectly voiced my thoughts on this.

In the discussion I had had earlier on FaceBook I was continually given the verse:

Quote:

Yet, when this verse is read I feel it strengthens the position that God does have pleasure in the death of those that refuse Him. That little word but. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that they will turn from their wicked way. I read that to say if they do not turn from their wicked way while living and they die in their sin then He is pleased? Death here appears to be a future event because after death they would have no option to turn from their wicked ways.

I again am not trying to suggest we go around with hatred in our hearts toward the unsaved in general, but when someone is bent on their wickedness and rejects the Savior I just don't see where God loves that person present tense.

I also find it interesting that the apostles never once told the multitudes that "God loves them" yet there are several instances where they preach the fear of God.

This verse also has been given as proof that God loves sinners:



But even this passage says that he commendeth His love toward us. He "offers" His love toward us AT CALVARY...That is the only place you will find God's love for the sinner mentioned.



God hates, the Bible says he does. He hates people even not just their sin. But Jesus appeased the wrath of God at the cross. So the only way God's wrath is appeased is by looking at the sinner who is covered by the blood of His Son.

Again, feel free to pick apart my thinking

Really enjoying reading your comments and thinking this through and studying the Bible

However, after much diccussion with my husband and examining the Scriptures Paul B. perfectly voiced my thoughts on this.

In the discussion I had had earlier on FaceBook I was continually given the verse:

Quote:

Yet, when this verse is read I feel it strengthens the position that God does have pleasure in the death of those that refuse Him. That little word but. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that they will turn from their wicked way. I read that to say if they do not turn from their wicked way while living and they die in their sin then He is pleased? Death here appears to be a future event because after death they would have no option to turn from their wicked ways.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Yet, when this verse is read I feel it strengthens the position that God does have pleasure in the death of those that refuse Him.

Huh?

I read that to say if they do not turn from their wicked way while living and they die in their sin then He is pleased?

Oh................. huh?

Death here appears to be a future event because after death they would have no option to turn from their wicked ways.

Oh.......... so God only hates sinners after they are dead. Didn't you just prove that God doesn't hate sinners that are alive right now?

But you also said (same post):

I again am not trying to suggest we go around with hatred in our hearts toward the unsaved in general, but when someone is bent on their wickedness and rejects the Savior I just don't see where God loves that person present tense.

This verse also has been given as proof that God loves sinners:

Quote:
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
But even this passage says that he commendeth His love toward us. He "offers" His love toward us AT CALVARY...That is the only place you will find God's love for the sinner mentioned.

Quote:
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So, Jesus didn't love sinners before Calvary? He must have been willing to die for sinners because He knew He would love them after Calvary. Yeah, that sounds good.

Except that:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Oops.
God loved the world (sinners, he didn't come to die for the Earth, He came to die for people who are sinners). And He loved them before He gave his only begotten Son.

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Oops again. Jesus said this to his disciples before Calvary. Were his disciples not sinners? I guess they must have been righteous since Christ said He said "as I have loved you" and He didn't love sinners before Calvary.

He "offers" His love toward us AT CALVARY...That is the only place you will find God's love for the sinner mentioned.

I believe that Jesus is God. And Jesus said that he who has seen Him has seen the Father.

Here are a few scriptures that make it pretty clear that Jesus didn't hate people (people=sinners):

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (I'm not an English major but the verb tense is continuous, or whatever. It's not future tense.

John 11:5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

John 13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

Now you might argue that God only loves those that He predestinates, or foresees will believe in Him at some point. Maybe that is true, but I don't think so. He loved the rich young man who walked away. Jesus gave no indication that the young man would change his mind and follow Him. And scripture never says so. In fact, Jesus used the young man as an example of how hard it is for the rich to enter into the Kingdom of God.

Mark 10:21-23 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions. And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Here Jesus is mourning the fate of His people. Why has he often yearned to gather them under his wings if He doesn't love them?

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

This whole topic has disturbing similarities to Calvinism in how it could cause spiritual pride and callousness toward those we are called to reach for Christ. "God" loves me but He "hates" sinners. God's hatred of sinners is taken out of the context of the whole testimony of God's plan of redemption for mankind and placed under a microscope for our self-satisfied examination.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.