[George]

Gord stated:

“I must say that this tread had me ask myself a lot of questions. I have spent the past 3 months reading and studying as much as I can on this topic. Brother George, as lot of the scripture references you provided especially on election, just didn't make any sense to me. {How didn’t they make sense to you? Where didn’t they make much sense to you? And Why didn’t they make much sense to you? You are disagreeing with me, but you haven’t given me any reasons other than it – “, just didn't make any sense to me.” }

When I read Paul's statement Ro*8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro*8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

To me, it means exactly what it says. I can not agree with any of the arguments of free will as that then mean MAN has some control of his salvation. {Did I ever say that it DID NOT “MEAN” WHAT IT SAID? If I did WHERE did I “say” that? “Generalities” mean nothing to me, for I have NO IDEA WHAT you are referring to.}

It seams to me Paul had this right long before Calvin was even born.

To make this easier for me, I have quoted the arguments of Dr. Keith Sherlin (Short Narrative) as he explains this far better than I ever could.”

Aloha brother Gord,

I am greatly disappointed that you did not choose to refute my points (one by one) with Scripture, rather than post some comments by some man who does not deal with my Post, but is presenting his own arguments in favor of Calvinism.

Here are some “QUOTES” from the “esteemed” Dr. Keith Sherlin:

All Bible Believers Admit the Bible Contains the Subject of Predestination/Election

I. The Words Election and Predestination are Found in the Bible. No person, especially a believer, can honestly read Scripture for long without coming across the words "election," and "predestination." To ignore that these words exist in the text of the Bible is to lie against the truth. We are not talking about definition of these words just yet. The first step is to simply admit that the Bible does indeed use such terminology. Here are some verses that simply use the terminology of elect, election, chosen, and predestination. "For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt. 22:14 ESV). "And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short" (Matt. 24:22 ESV)."And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night" (Luke 18:7 NIV)? "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen" (John 13:18a NASB)."You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit" (John 15:16a NKJV). "this man [Christ Jesus] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23a NASB). "For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified" (Rom. 8:29-30 HCSB). "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call" (Rom. 9:11 ESV). "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph. 1:4-5 NKJV)."Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" (1 Peter 1:1-2a NASB).

Did it “slip” your notice that the “esteemed doctor” quoted from FIVE (5) CORRUPT bibles? Am I to take what any man says seriously when he has NO FINAL AUTHORITY? If you were to ask this man for a “Definition” of the “Bible” he professes to believe in – WHAT would he say? He said: “All Bible Believers Admit the Bible Contains the Subject of Predestination/Election”. WHICH “BIBLE” is he referring to? Hmmm?

WHAT do I care about: “The Articles of Religion in 1571”; “The Formula of Concord in 1577”; “The Westminister Confession of Faith of 1643-1646”; or the “The Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689”? All of these “confessions” came during or after John Calvin, and so they are just “parroting” John Calvin’s PHILOSOPHY! My whole Post uses only the Holy Scriptures and I do NOT rely on any man to write what I believe – the entire study is entirely my own with the exception for the very last Post concerning John Calvin’s life.

The “esteemed” Dr. Keith Sherlin continually uses corrupt bibles as the following illustrates:

Under: “Election/Predestination is Related to the Omniscient Foreknowledge of God’

He quotes from:

The Bible teaches that "for by grace through faith we are saved; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph. 2:8-9 NASB).

He will often quote from “bibles” without referencing WHICH ONE HE IS QUOTING! For example:

Under: Election/Predestination is Conditioned Upon God's Determinate Foreknowledge, Not Man's Will and Obedience

Under: God Determines What He Eternally Knows

The good “doctor” quotes:

Psalm 139:4 "Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O Lord You know it all." (?)

Psalms 139:4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. {KJB}

Psalm 139:16 "Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The Days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them."(?)

Psalms 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. {KJB}

Isaiah 46:9-10 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure.'" (?)

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: {KJB}

Ephesians 1:11 "We have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."(?)

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: {KJB}

Under: God Eternally Knows Some, But Not All, As His Children


The “esteemed doctor” quotes:

Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; Depart from Me, You who practice lawlessness.'" (?)

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. {KJB}

Romans 9:21-23 "Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessles of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (NASB).

The New Living Translation captures this thought in a very vivid way: Romans 9:21-23 reads in the NLT: "When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? God has every right to exercise his judgement and his power, but he also has the right to be very patient with those who are the objects of his judgement and are fit only for destruction. He also has the right to pour out the riches of his glory upon those he prepared to be the objects of his mercy."

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, {KJB}

And again Under: Fear Being a Vessel of Wrath and Flee to Jesus Christ for Salvation

2nd Peter said it this way, "be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall" (1:10 ESV)

And this time - the “esteemed doctor” comes up with his “OWN TRANSLATION”:

“The Bible tells us that "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son so that whoever is believing in him right now will not perish but will have everlasting life" (John 3:16 my translation of the Greek text).

Did you not notice that the “esteemed” doctor failed to quote from the Holy Bible? Doesn’t it bother you (at least a little) that the “esteemed” doctor fails to quote from God’s Holy word (the King James Bible) – NOT EVEN ONCE in his entire essay? Are you so desperate to “DISPROVE” what I have written that you will appeal to a man who REFUSES to quote from the Holy Bible – NOT EVEN ONCE?

IF after studying this issue for the past three months, this is ALL that you can up with, then I suggest that you go “back to the drawing board” and SKIP the “esteemed doctor” (and all of the rest of the commentators) and “search the Scriptures” yourself (instead) to see if what I presented was true or NOT.

As for the “esteemed doctor. Keith Sherli, If he were in our church, we wouldn’t let him teach Sunday School!

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

[chette777]

Gord,

Did you even know the man you were quoting does not think the KJV Bible is perfectly preserved word of God.

look how many versions he has to post to make his argument.

Paul's view on predestinate and Calvin's are not even in the same ballpark.

[George]

Aloha brother Gord,

This is just a short follow up to my comments in my Post #121 (in response to your Post #120). In order to know where you are coming from – would you answer a few questions? These questions are not meant to “trip you up” or to be used against you:

1. Have you ever been a Calvinist? YES? Or NO?

2. Were you a Calvinist BEFORE I posted my Series on Calvinism? YES? Or NO?

3. Are you NOW a Calvinist? YES? Or NO?

Did you notice that Dr. Keith Sherlin used about 20 verses (all from corrupt bibles) presenting his case for the doctrine of “Unconditional Election”, whereas I used approximately 85 verses of Holy Scripture in presenting my case against “Unconditional Election” in my Post #9 on Calvinism (not counting any verses that I may have quoted in the subsequent Posts {Posts #13; #16; #25; & #37} that were all related to the issue of “Unconditional Election”)?

Granted – I could have twisted, wrested, and taken many of those verses out of their context to make them “mean” something other than what they “SAY” in order to “PROVE” MY POINT; but if I did, it would be up to you to “POINT OUT” where I “misused” (or “abused”) the Scriptures –and, “point by point”, demonstrate WHERE I WAS WRONG.

Just to say: “Brother George, as lot of the scripture references you provided especially on election, just didn't make any sense to me.” doesn’t tell me anything.

Dr. Keith Sherlin’s essay on “Unconditional Election” did NOT deal with all of the points that I made in my essay against “Unconditional Election”, instead, his essay was just another (amongst hundreds) in support of the doctrine of “Unconditional Election”.

You said that: “I have spent the past 3 months reading and studying as much as I can on this topic.” Since you spent that much time studying the “topic” - did you examine the “topic” from BOTH SIDES {Pro and Con}?

Since you referred to Dr. Keith Sherlin (an obvious Calvinist),and used his essay in support of your belief; and since you spent three months “reading and studying as much as I can on this topic”; you surely must have read BOTH SIDES of the “topic” - didn’t you? And IF you did read BOTH SIDES of the “topic”, perhaps you could cite some the books, essays, articles, etc. that presented “The Other Side of Calvinism”? By now you know that I normally don’t go around recommending men, however, IF you haven’t read BOTH SIDES of the “topic” then before you commit yourself to Calvinism, you should check out “The Other Side Of Calvinism” by Laurence M. Vance (788 Pages <> Copyright 1991 – Revised 1999).

It is a given that there are at least two sides to every issue; and IF (over the last three months) you have only checked out ONE SIDE of this “topic”, you haven’t thoroughly examined the issue (from BOTH SIDES).

That is why I asked the questions at the beginning of this Post. IF you were a “committed” Calvinist BEFORE I posted my essays, then there’s not much chance that my articles are going to change your mind or, especially, your heart. A peculiar thing about the heart of a man is – ONCE he truly BELIEVES in “something” (anything), it is extremely difficult for him to CHANGE. It’s as if, in “believing”, a “commitment” is made (by the heart) to the “BELIEF”, and very seldom will a person “reverse” themselves and embrace another “BELIEF”.

If you have NOT examined the other side of Calvinism, I urge you to do so – before you commit yourself to a doctrine, that I believe to be not only false, but also pernicious, in that it CHANGES the Holy word of God and takes away from the precious “promises” of God.

[Gord]

I will answer your question within the quote in blue.
[QUOTE=George;23338]Aloha brother Gord,

This is just a short follow up to my comments in my Post #121 (in response to your Post #120). In order to know where you are coming from – would you answer a few questions? These questions are not meant to “trip you up” or to be used against you:

1. Have you ever been a Calvinist? YES? Or NO?
Not until only recently

2. Were you a Calvinist BEFORE I posted my Series on Calvinism? YES? Or NO?
No, but I thank you for lighting my inquisitive fire.

3. Are you NOW a Calvinist? YES? Or NO?
Yes

Did you notice that Dr. Keith Sherlin used about 20 verses (all from corrupt bibles) presenting his case for the doctrine of “Unconditional Election”, whereas I used approximately 85 verses of Holy Scripture in presenting my case against “Unconditional Election” in my Post #9 on Calvinism (not counting any verses that I may have quoted in the subsequent Posts {Posts #13; #16; #25; & #37} that were all related to the issue of “Unconditional Election”)?
Yes of course I noticed that, the version is not the issue, ELECT and PREDESTINE mean the same thing in plain english regardless of the version.

Granted – I could have twisted, wrested, and taken many of those verses out of their context to make them “mean” something other than what they “SAY” in order to “PROVE” MY POINT; but if I did, it would be up to you to “POINT OUT” where I “misused” (or “abused”) the Scriptures –and, “point by point”, demonstrate WHERE I WAS WRONG.

Just to say: “Brother George, as lot of the scripture references you provided especially on election, just didn't make any sense to me.” doesn’t tell me anything.
See my answer and you quote below.

....I will post a further response later as time is my enemy at the moment.

....

From your post #1,

1. Unlike Arminianism (or as Calvinists purportedly report) - I did not “PICK” the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour! I HEARD “the Gospel of Christ” (the same one preached by the Apostle Paul – [Romans 1:16, 15:19, 15:29]; and BELIEVED (in my heart) the word[Romans 10:17] ofGod concerning Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection [1 Corinthians 15:1-4]; and RECEIVED the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour [John 1:12] and became a son of God.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I did not “PICK” Christ as my Saviour – I BELIEVED on Him and He saved me!

2. Unlike Calvinism - I believe that The Lord Jesus Christ’s sacrificial death and shed blood are totally sufficient for the sins of the whole world, but are only efficacious for those people who BELIEVE on Him!

1 Timothy 4:10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that BELIEVE.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

3.Unlike the way Calvinist’s explain how I supposedly believe (I just “decide”) or the way Arminianism may actually be - I just don’t DECIDE if I “want to be saved or not” – I must first BELIEVE the Gospel, before God saves me [Ephesians 1:13].

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that BELIEVE on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. {“nor of the will of the flesh” - I don’t DECIDE anything! God determined before the world began that those who will BELIEVE on His son shall be saved!}

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through himmight be saved.
18 He that BELIEVETH on him is not condemned: but he that BELIEVETH NOT is condemned already, because he hath NOT BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Notice - the “operative word” in all of the above testimony is “BELIEVE” (i.e. BELIEF). I believe that before anyone can receive salvation, they must first “BELIEVE” THE Gospel of Christ and then (and only then) will God save them.

4. Unlike most Armenians - I DO NOT believe that once a person is saved (born again) that they can “lose” their salvation. And Unlike most Calvinists -I believe GOD PRESERVES His saints – NOT in “the perseverance of the saints”.

Psalms 31:23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.
Psalms 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psalms 97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

I agree, but you failed to show the reason WHY.

1Pe*1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

and

Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God takes it completely out of the hands of MAN. He made that choice for us. This is neither Arminian, or Calvin I read this from the KJV of my bible. It just so happens that John Calvin agreed with Paul.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Gord

God takes it completely out of the hands of MAN. He made that choice for us. This is neither Arminian, or Calvin I read this from the KJV of my bible. It just so happens that John Calvin agreed with Paul.

Greetings Gord. I'm wondering this. If the free will of man has nothing to do with believing...because you said "God takes it completely out of the hands of MAN. He made that choice for us." How is it that we now have a free will to obey or disobey? How is it that before salvation God imposed His will on us who are now saved but does not impose His will now that I am? by your theology.

[chette777]

Originally Posted by Gord

Yes of course I noticed that, the version is not the issue, ELECT and PREDESTINE mean the same thing in plain english regardless of the version.

Gord,

The version issue is very much the issue. if they use a Bible that has changed the words it changes the context and meaning. without these perversions Sherlin could not support his personal interpretation of his doctrine of Predestination or Election.

Elect and Predestine do not mean the same thing. Not in the English Dictionaries I have.

you will notice that not once in the KJV does Predestinate apply to an unbeliever. Predestinate only applies to people who are already saved, not before they get saved. It what we would call a Church Doctrine, for they only apply to the church

IN order to understand Rom 8:30 you will need to study out how God chooses. Eph 1:4 tells us he chose us IN HIM (Christ) as it says in the context of Roms 8:29 his foreknowledge. God by his foreknowledge chose those who were IN HIM then afterwards the predestinated verse follows. so one must be IN HIM to have any predestination applied to him.

George did an excellent study on it. apparently you did not read it or believe it. but he used only KJV Bible and all in context tot he surrounding verses. Dr Shelin used multiple choice versions and the verses are used out of context. How did you miss that?

[George]

[quote=Gord;23367]I will answer your question within the quote in blue.

Originally Posted by George

Aloha brother Gord,

This is just a short follow up to my comments in my Post #121 (in response to your Post #120). In order to know where you are coming from – would you answer a few questions? These questions are not meant to “trip you up” or to be used against you:

1. Have you ever been a Calvinist? YES? Or NO?
Not until only recently

2. Were you a Calvinist BEFORE I posted my Series on Calvinism? YES? Or NO?
No, but I thank you for lighting my inquisitive fire.

3. Are you NOW a Calvinist? YES? Or NO?
Yes

Did you notice that Dr. Keith Sherlin used about 20 verses (all from corrupt bibles) presenting his case for the doctrine of “Unconditional Election”, whereas I used approximately 85 verses of Holy Scripture in presenting my case against “Unconditional Election” in my Post #9 on Calvinism (not counting any verses that I may have quoted in the subsequent Posts {Posts #13; #16; #25; & #37} that were all related to the issue of “Unconditional Election”)?
Yes of course I noticed that, the version is not the issue, ELECT and PREDESTINE mean the same thing in plain english regardless of the version.

Granted – I could have twisted, wrested, and taken many of those verses out of their context to make them “mean” something other than what they “SAY” in order to “PROVE” MY POINT; but if I did, it would be up to you to “POINT OUT” where I “misused” (or “abused”) the Scriptures –and, “point by point”, demonstrate WHERE I WAS WRONG.

Just to say: “Brother George, as lot of the scripture references you provided especially on election, just didn't make any sense to me.” doesn’t tell me anything.
See my answer and you quote below.

....I will post a further response later as time is my enemy at the moment.
....
From your post #1,

I agree, but you failed to show the reason WHY. {I did? - I don't think so! Please read the comments listed below from my Posts on Calvinism. I covered the two verses you cite and plenty more.}

and

and

"God takes it completely out of the hands of MAN. He made that choice for us. This is neither Arminian, or Calvin I read this from the KJV of my bible. It just so happens that John Calvin agreed with Paul."

Aloha brother Gord,

I am saddened and disappointed that my study on Calvinism has prompted you to become a "Calvinist". But since I believe in Christian "liberty", I will not castigate or berate you over your "decision", especially since I do NOT have "dominion over your faith" [2Corinthians 1:24].

I said:

Did you notice that Dr. Keith Sherlin used about 20 verses (all from corrupt bibles) presenting his case for the doctrine of “Unconditional Election”, whereas I used approximately 85 verses of Holy Scripture in presenting my case against “Unconditional Election” in my Post #9 on Calvinism (not counting any verses that I may have quoted in the subsequent Posts {Posts #13; #16; #25; & #37} that were all related to the issue of “Unconditional Election”)?

To which you replied:

"Yes of course I noticed that, the version is not the issue, ELECT and PREDESTINE mean the same thing in plain english regardless of the version."

Your statement:"the version is not the issue" and "regardless of the version" is even a bigger disappointment to me, because you fail to see the importance of deriving "pure doctrine" from an equally "PURE SOURCE". [Matthew 7:18; Luke 6:43-44; Jeremiah 2:13; Psalms 33:4; Psalms 119:140, 160;' Proverbs 30:5] Isaiah 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

Your statement: "ELECT and PREDESTINE mean the same thing in plain english regardless of the version" is in serious error. "Election" PRECEDES "Predestination". God "elects" us based on His "foreknowledge"; He THEN "predestinates" us "to be conformed to the image of his Son". {These are two separate "operations" of God.}

Please read the Scriptures:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The "election" of the saints is the operation of God CHOOSING us "in Him before the foundation of the world."

The "predestination" of the saints is the operation of God wherein, AFTER He has "elected" us - He "predestinates" us "to be conformed to the image of his Son".

That is - AFTER God "CHOSE" us, He "predestinated" the eternal destiny of each and every one of us. Or to put it another way: "Election" = God "Choosing". "Predestination" = God predetermining our eternal destiny. BUT this whole issue still comes down to God's "foreknowledge".

Did you read what I said about the "FOREKNOWLEDGE" of God in AV1611 BIBLE FORUMS > DOCTRINE > " CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?" Post #9

U = “Unconditional Election”

Calvinists state:
“God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual.”

I do not agree with the statement: “God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual.” If the statement is in reference to “works”, I will agree, but if it is in reference to “BELIEF”, then I CANNOT agree. “ANYTHING” would include “BELIEF” – can you see the confusion (again) of thinking that “BELIEF” (an operation of the heart) is a “WORK” (an operation of the flesh)?

No one can argue with:“He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual.” All genuine Bible believers would go along with this statement {since MERIT = WORKS}, unless someone lumps in “MERIT” = “BELIEF”! You see how it goes? Can you see how vitally important WORDS are?

IF “MERIT” equals “WORKS”, then we can agree with the statement, without any reservations, for all true Bible believers know that God has not chosen the “elect” because of their “WORKS” – that would nullify BELIEF & FAITH & SALVATION by GRACE! But, if “MERIT” includes “BELIEF”, that would nullify the separate purposes of the heart and the flesh, making them both THE SAME – which they are NOT; which would ultimately make “BELIEF” a “WORK” – which it is NOT! {Can you see how TOTAL DEPRAVITY is the “Lynchpin” upon which “Calvinism” relies?}

Let’s examine the verses cited [Ephesians 1:4-8] in context and “rightly divide” God’s words:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

NOTHING in Ephesians 1:4-8 tells us THE BASIS for God “choosing” us (the “elect”). It is clear, however, that God has “chosen us in Him - before the foundation of the world” to be “holy and without blame before him in love:” – are ALL Christians “holy and without blame before him in love”? Christians can believe in God “choosing”, and in "calling", "election", "predestination", "justification", and "eternal salvation", "preservation" (NOT "perseverance") without being a Calvinist. We also can believe in "whosoever will" without being an Armenian! It's NOT an "either/or" proposition, no matter how hard some (in either "camp") try to force us into one or the other.

The chronological order is:[Ephesians 1:13]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, God did not look down from Heaven before the foundation of the world and go – Eenee Meenee Miny Moe; nor did He willy nilly just “choose” without “FOREKNOWLEDGE”; and here is where “the rubber meets the road” - WHAT WAS THAT FOREKNOWLEDGE BASED ON?

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
The Scriptures clearly state that the “Elect” are according to the “foreknowledge” of God the Father – But the BASIS of “foreknowledge” is not clearly defined in the above verse.

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
In the above verse - “Foreknowledge” is clearly defined as God “knowing”, ahead of time, about events that were going to take place in the future.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
In the above verse those: “whom he did “foreknow” are “predestined to be conformed to the image of his son”. Are all Christians “conformed” to the “image” of Christ today? Has there ever been a time in church history when they were? This verse is not talking about our “Salvation”; it’s talking about how “whom he did “foreknow” (all those who have been saved - born again) will someday be just like Jesus Christ. [1Corinthians 15:49] The BASIS of God’s “foreknowledge” is NOT explained (or defined) in the verse – only the fact that all those “whom he did foreknow are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” To be “conformed to the image of His Son” is the ultimate destiny of every single person (man, woman, or child) that has ever BELIEVED in the Lord Jesus Christ!

Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
In the above verse: those He “foreknew” are clearly Jews (Hebrews) – NOT Christians! How someone can build a “Major Doctrine” upon so few verses is beyond me.

And in the same Post:

SOME MORE EXAMPLES OF “FOREKNOWLEDGE”

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. {Please read through to John 6:59}

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that BELIEVED NOT, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, THEREFORE said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. {See: John 6:44 – 59}

Please notice that the three foregoing examples of “foreknowledge” clearly demonstrate that:

#1. The Lord Jesus Christ refused to “commit Himself unto them” – BECAUSE HE “FOREKNEW” AHEAD OF TIME what the people would do. {That is - He based His actions in response to His “foreknowledge” of the people’s intent.}

#2. The Lord Jesus Christ MAKES A SPECIFIC STATEMENT – Based on the fact that HE “FOREKNEW” AHEAD OF TIME “who should betray Him”. {That is – He specifically said something in response to His “foreknowledge” of future events.}

#3. The Lord Jesus Christ specifically MAKES A STATEMENT – In response to the fact that He FORE -“knew from the beginning who they were that BELIEVED NOT!!! Did you get that? The Lord Jesus Christ makes a particular statement - BECAUSE He knew AHEAD OF TIME, "from the beginning", (BASED ON HIS “FOREKNOWLEDGE”) “WHO they were that BELIEVED NOT, and WHO should betray Him”. Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, based his actions and response on WHAT someone BELIEVED or did NOT BELIEVE!

And again from the same Post:

Calvinists state:
“Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).”
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

WHAT do the two verses cited have to do with being “elected into salvation”? We are “elected” according to the “foreknowledge” of God. That “foreknowledge” is based on SOMETHING and we know that it is NOT on our WORKS (i.e. something we have done in the flesh). Then WHAT is God’s “foreknowledge” BASED ON? That is the $64,000,000 question!

I wonder - did you read the part of the same Post where I said:

Let’s examine a few verses of Scripture and compare the Holy words of God with the doctrines of Calvinism – shall we?

{Rather than quote the verses - Please read 2 Thessalonians 2:1-14}

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
WHY didn’t God say: “because they received not the ELECTION, that they might be saved.”
WHY all the concern about people having “the love of the truth” – IF they are already “unconditionally elected into salvation”? What difference would it make, whether they loved “the truth”, or NOT - IF they are already “unconditionally elected into salvation”?

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
WHY is God sending them “strong delusion”, so that “they should BELIEVE a lie” – IF “some are elected into salvation, (and) others are not”; WHY bother with sending people “strong delusion, that they should believe a lie” – IF “some are elected into salvation, (and) others are not”? What is the point? WHY the emphasis on “belief” instead of election, unless “belief” or “unbelief” (NOT “election” ALONE) is the ultimate deciding factor in determining whether we are saved or lost?

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
WHY the concern about people either believing the truth or NOT believing the truth – IF “some are elected into salvation, others are not”? If Calvinism is true - shouldn’t the verse read: “That they all might be damned who are not elected into salvation”? WHY does Almighty God keep emphasizing “BELIEF” – and Calvinism keeps emphasizing “Total Depravity” or “Unconditional Election”?

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
WHY do the Scriptures stress “belief of the truth:” when talking about God choosing us “to salvation” – rather than “ELECTION”? IF “some are elected into salvation, (and) others are not” is true - WHERE does “belief of the truth:” fit in? Over and over, again and again, God keeps emphasizing “BELIEF”, “BELIEVE”, “BELIEVED”, or “BELIEVING”; WHAT is the point – IF “some are elected into salvation, others are not”? Isn’t it obvious by now – that Calvinism is a “DEAD END”? IF “some are elected into salvation, others are not” – since it’s all predetermined any way - WHY BOTHER? Some people “are elected into salvation” and other people “are not”! That is, according to Calvinism, “some (us “lucky” ones) are elected into salvation, others (you “unlucky” ones) are not” {or in other words - some have been “ELECTED” to DAMNATION!}

But what about “Whosoever Will” (or “whosoever will NOT”) that God has stated in His Holy word {and promised}? Is God a man, that He should lie?
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Does our God make an offer to men (and women) and not mean it? Is Almighty God disingenuous when He says WHOSOEVER WILL? Does “WHOSOEVER WILL” only mean those who “are elected into salvation”? Or is it a General Call to all of mankind?

Calvinism has some “major problems” with God’s Holy word, and I for one refuse to follow a man who lived 450 years ago, who although he might have been extremely intelligent, certainly didn’t have all of the answers to God’s Holy word. No man has ever “figured out” all of God’s word. And to think that some man who lived over 400 years ago had all of the answers is absurd! Calvin didn’t even have all of the QUESTIONS – never mind all of the answers! {This is WHY I am “leery” of ALL“systems of biblical interpretation” and “theological formulations”}
2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

WHY is a person’s “calling” determined by Paul’s “Gospel” - IF “some are elected into salvation, others are not”? WHAT does “believing” the “gospel” have to do with “the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” - IF “some are elected into salvation, (and) others are not”?

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
WHY don’t the Scriptures state: “the word of God, which effectually worketh in those that are unconditionally elected”, instead of those that “believe”? IF “Unconditional Election” is God’s sole “modus operandi” – WHY the emphasis on “belief”?

Unconditional Election (as “Total Depravity” did before) ignores the testimony of the Scriptures about “BELIEF”, “BELIEVE”, “BELIEVED”, or “BELIEVING”.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
WHY DOES God command us to BELIEVE, IF “some are elected into salvation, others are not” -unless our salvation is “conditioned” on our Believing first, WHY the emphasis on “believing” when we are already “unconditionally elected”? WHY the COMMANDMENT to BELIEVE?

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
WHY IS God WORKING at getting people to BELIEVE on Him, IF “some are elected into salvation, (and) others are not”? WHY “WORK” at all to get them to BELIEVE?

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
WHY PRAY for someone to BELIEVE, IF they are already “Unconditionally elected into salvation, (and) others are not”? WHY the concern about someone believing on the Lord “through their word”– IF they are already “unconditionally elected into salvation, (and) others are not”!

Romans 4:24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; {& Philippians 1:29}
WHY is IMPUTATION dependent on our BELIEVING on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord” – IF we are already “unconditionally elected into salvation, (and) others are not”? Wouldn’t it (imputation) be based on our “unconditional election”?

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
WHY isn’t there any mention of “Election” in the verse – for example according to Calvinism the verse should have said: For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to“be unconditionally elected into salvation”? Once again WHY does God continually emphasize “BELIEF”?

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
HOW is Paul “a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting”? Is Paul’s Conversion a “PATTERN” of “unconditional election”? Paul’s Conversion is a “PATTERN” {example} of God’s Grace to an unbeliever [“Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious” . . . who “obtained mercy, because” (he) “did it ignorantly in unbelief.” 1Timothy 1:13] The Scriptures did NOT say that Paul obtained mercy because he was “unconditionally elected into salvation”! The Scriptures did NOT say: that Paul was “a pattern to the elect which were unconditionally elected into salvation”! According to the Holy Bible, the Apostle Paul is a PATTERN - “to them which should hereafter BELIEVE on him to life everlasting”! The Apostle Paul’s conversion is the classic “PATTERN” of an unbeliever who “BELIEVES on Him (The Lord Jesus Christ) to life everlasting.”

I believe that I summed up the issue of election, foreknowledge, predestination, etc. in my last Post:

AV1611 BIBLE FORUMS > DOCTRINE > " CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?" Post #67

I = “Irresistible Grace”

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Question: WHO is “ordained”? Answer: THOSE {the elect} whom God “foreknew”. Question: WHO did God “foreknow”? Answer: THOSE whom God did “predestinate”. Question: WHO did God “predestinate”? Answer: THOSE whom He “called”. Question: WHO did God “call”? Answer: THOSE whom He “justified”. Question: WHO did God “JUSTIFY”? Answer: THOSE who received “faith”. Question: WHO received “faith”? Answer: THOSE who “BELIEVED” ON THE Lord Jesus Christ! {That wasn’t so hard – was it?}
{Now – REVERSE THE ORDER!}

And what about my earlier Post:

AV1611 BIBLE FORUMS > DOCTRINE > " CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?" Post #3

T = “Total Depravity” (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)

And herein is the first major difference between most Calvinists and myself. In their concern for men having absolutely NOTHING to do with EARNING their salvation, the Calvinist (through the doctrine of “TOTAL DEPRAVITY”) make it impossible for a man (or woman) to even BELIEVE – unless they are “regenerated” FIRST!

Now, I believe that there is NOTHING we can DO to EARN God’s Salvation; but there is SOMETHING that we MUST DO to RECEIVE God’s Salvation – WE MUST FIRST BELIEVE!
THE QUESTION IS: . . .Sirs, WHAT MUST I DO to be saved? THE BIBLICAL ANSWER: And they said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
[Acts 16:30-31]

There is a huge difference between sinful men (and women) being unable (in the flesh) to DO anything to EARN their Salvation, and men and women first “BELIEVING” the Gospel (with their heart) in order to RECEIVE God’s Free Gift of Eternal Salvation!

Now the Calvinists (in their concern for man having NOTHING to do with his Salvation) cannot accept that we BELIEVE before we are “regenerated” (for, according to Calvinism, that would be a WORK on the part of man, and since Salvation is:“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” [Titus 3:5] then (according to the Calvinists) we must be “regenerated” before we can believe – since BELIEVING (according to Calvinists) is a WORK. But BELIEF is solely an operation and function of the HEART – NOT the flesh! “WORKS of righteousness” are done in the FLESH. The heart is our “faculty” where our will resides; the flesh is our “substance” that produces WORKS!

As I said before - the problem is: that for all of these years (since the time of Calvin) – most of the “scribes” & “scholars” have failed to clearly DEFINE the “ATTRIBUTES” of man {according to the Holy Scriptures}, and in failing to do so they have confused (i.e. mixed up) “works” that are done in the “flesh”, and BELIEF {an operation solely performed by the heart}. And not only that, in failing to discern between our SUBSTANCE (body, soul, & spirit), and our FACULTIES (heart, mind, & conscience) they have ended up attributing “works” to an attribute of man (the heart) that has absolutely nothing to do with the actual performance or execution of “works”.
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In this age (under the “New Covenant”) God is engaged in a “WORK”:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The “WORK” of God (in this age) is to convince people (through His word) to “BELIEVE” the Gospel. The purpose of the Gospel is to bring people to the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. IF God “gives” us our “BELIEF”, WHY does He have to WORK at it? If our “BELIEF” is a “gift” from God - where then is there any “WORK” on God’s part? According to the Scriptures, God is now working at getting people to “believe on him whom he hath sent.” [Acts 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.] If our “BELIEF” is a “gift” from God, there would be no “WORK” involved at all (on God’s part). Why would God try to “convince” someone of the very same thing (belief) that He is going to “give” them anyway?

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

We obtained like precious "faith" (God's precious "gift" to us) by "believing" in our hearts, “after” we heard the Gospel of the Grace of God.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, AFTER that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Please notice the “Chronological Order” that leads up to our Salvation: We TRUSTED, AFTER we HEARD the word of TRUTH (The Gospel). We were “sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise”, AFTER WE BELIEVED – NOT “BEFORE”! [Ephesians 1:13]:

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In this age (under the “New Covenant”) God is engaged in a “WORK”:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The “WORK” of God (in this age) is to convince people (through His word) to “BELIEVE” the Gospel. The purpose of the Gospel is to bring people to the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. IF God “gives” us our “BELIEF”, WHY does He have to WORK at it? If our “BELIEF” is a “gift” from God - where then is there any “WORK” on God’s part? According to the Scriptures, God is now working at getting people to “believe on him whom he hath sent.” [Acts 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.] If our “BELIEF” is a “gift” from God, there would be no “WORK” involved at all (on God’s part). Why would God try to “convince” someone of the very same thing (belief) that He is going to “give” them anyway?

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

We obtained like precious "faith" (God's precious "gift" to us) by "believing" in our hearts, “after” we heard the Gospel of the Grace of God.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, AFTER that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Please notice the “Chronological Order” that leads up to our Salvation: We TRUSTED, AFTER we HEARD the word of TRUTH (The Gospel). We were “sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise”, AFTER WE BELIEVED– NOT “BEFORE”! [Ephesians 1:13]:

In all of these “examples” (and there are many, many more) we see certain principles and precepts that are in play throughout: God’s GRACE (always first and foremost), without which, no one could be saved; man’s “BELIEF” in God and in His Holy words; man’s “Trust” and “FAITH” in God and in His Holy words; and God honoring that “BELIEF” (first), then along with man’s “Trust” & “Faith”, by blessing the man whose heart truly and sincerely “BELIEVED”.

When a person BELIEVES the Gospel (in his heart), there is absolutely NO connection to “works” in any way - because the purpose, function, and operation of the heart is not the same as the purpose, function, and operation of the flesh. I repeat: “BELIEVING” is the sole operation of the heart. “Works”, on the other hand, are an operation of the flesh and have nothing to DO with “BELIEVING” the Gospel of Christ, nor can they have anything to DO with our salvation.

In this age (under the “New Covenant”) God is engaged in a “WORK”:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The “WORK” of God (in this age) is to convince people (through His word) to “BELIEVE” the Gospel. The purpose of the Gospel is to bring people to the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. IF God “gives” us our “BELIEF”, WHY does He have to WORK at it? If our “BELIEF” is a “gift” from God - where then is there any “WORK” on God’s part? According to the Scriptures, God is now working at getting people to “believe on him whom he hath sent.” [Acts 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.] If our “BELIEF” is a “gift” from God, there would be no “WORK” involved at all (on God’s part). Why would God try to “convince” someone of the very same thing (belief) that He is going to “give” them anyway? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the very beginning of the creation of Adam, and up to the present time, God has wanted people to "believe" Him and obey Him. There have been different Dispensations; and God has required different things of people under the different "Covenants"; but the one constant thread running throughout all of the ages (Dispensations), and under all of the "Covenants" is God's consistent requirement that we "Believe" Him (His Holy words). He does not FORCE us, or MAKE us "believe" Him, but He "REQUIRES" it!

God has required of everyone under every Covenant and in every "age" that they "BELIEVE" His words {Oral or Written} and OBEY them. We are very fortunate that under the "New Covenant” - All we have to DO to get saved is to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, . . . ." {When WE "BELIEVE" in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection and "RECEIVE" Him as our personal Saviour, we have done (obeyed) all that God has required of us (under the "New" Covenant) to get saved.} God never said that we are too “DEPRAVED” to believe Him – He has said that there is nothing we can DO (“WORKS”) to save ourselves {Romans 1:16; Romans 3:19-28; Galatians 2:16}.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

{If you are a “Calvinist” - you are going to have to CHANGE the “Scriptural order” in which a person gets saved. Or you will CHANGE the Holy words of God to “FIT” your ‘doctrine”!}

[Gord]

Originally Posted by Forrest

Greetings Gord. I'm wondering this. If the free will of man has nothing to do with believing...because you said "God takes it completely out of the hands of MAN. He made that choice for us." How is it that we now have a free will to obey or disobey? How is it that before salvation God imposed His will on us who are now saved but does not impose His will now that I am? by your theology.

1. The belief that God predestined people for salvation before the beginning of time. God’s election is not conditioned by anything in man, good or evil, foreseen or present, but upon God’s sovereign choice.

Romans 3:10-18 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

Joh*6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh*6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Joh*6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

2. The Bible clearly teaches that election is not conditioned on man.

Joh*15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Romans 9:10-13 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

3. The words “predestine,” “choose,” “appoint,” and “foreknow” are
all in the active voice, which speaks of the initiative of the actor
behind the action (God). One would have to have a preconceived
bias against the doctrine of election in order to interpret these
words in a conditional sense.

4. Romans 9:8–29 clearly and contextually teach unconditional
election of individuals.

Job 42:1-6 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

5. Salvation is by grace alone and for God’s glory alone. If people are elect based on their own choice, then merit is gained through the work of the individual (i.e., their faith).

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

6. If all people of all time have “equal opportunity” to come to the
Lord through God’s prevenient grace and their own free will, why
is it that salvation is not more evenly dispersed?

In other words God elected those for his glory and that is His Grace.

This is so clear to me, I hope this explains why I think and see this.

[Gord]

[QUOTE=George;23385]

Originally Posted by Gord

I will answer your question within the quote in blue.


Aloha brother Gord,

I am saddened and disappointed that my study on Calvinism has prompted you to become a "Calvinist". But since I believe in Christian "liberty", I will not castigate or berate you over your "decision", especially since I do NOT have "dominion over your faith" [2Corinthians 1:24].

[...

Brother George, please don't feel saddened or disappointed. I'm am really not sure why it's so important to 'pigeon hole' people of varying thoughts or believes into a label? The uniqueness of everyone's understanding of God's Grace is as varied as the stars in the sky, and soon we will run out of labels.

By your definition, and need to for lack of a better term, 'pigeon hole', then I am what you call a Calvinist. But like you I too do not agree entirely with all Calvin taught, nor Arminus, so in reality I am just a Gordist, and you would be a Georgeist.

You should be delighted that your study sparked me to look deeper and discover this great mystery of our Lord and Saviour, I know I sure am humbled to know that I had nothing to do with it. Please see my response to Brother Forest for my reasons of that excitement. I thank you for challenging my mind.

[JOHN G]

Bro. Gord said,

5. Salvation is by grace alone and for God’s glory alone. If people are elect based on their own choice, then merit is gained through the work of the individual (i.e., their faith).

Paul tells us that believing is not a work.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.



John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.