[Paladin54]

And help me brothers, this verse has not been brought up, to my knowledge.

Matthew 12:31-32
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

Brothers, help me out here!

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Paladin54

Debau, those verses (Romans 8:38-39) do not answer, however, what if someone really honestly converts to a different faith? What if they become Moslem, where they are forced to renounce the divinity of Christ? These verses assure the believer that his faith is secure, but it does not appear that the author is referring to someone who willfully deserts Christ-without being restored.

I am not now questioning "preservation of the saints", as I am now prayerfully considering, but these verses do not seem to support it....help here?

I see a lot of talk about "Christians" who become atheists, Moslems, etc. It's hard for me to imagine how someone can truly come to know Jesus, and then later stop believing that He is.

Clearly there are those claiming to be Christians who aren't, and those who claimed to have "lost" the faith who never were. And there are those who will claim to the very end that they are.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

"I never knew you." Not, "I knew you at one time but not now", or "If I ever knew you I've forgotten", or anything else.

Well, I guess an accusation seems appropriate to you. I'm not compromising. I disagree with the accusation and your conclusion. Why say I'm 100% correct, then accuse me of compromise, then say I was wrong all within a matter of 2 paragraphs? I don't understand.

As for saying "you have more in common with Baptist than I thought", I don't understand that either. I do see a paradox. One proof is the fact it has been a hotly debated issue for a very long time.

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Looks like we have to keep ourselves in God's love.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

And here God keeps what we have committed unto Him.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

We have to keep our body under subjection to avoid being a castaway.

2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

Here it is promised that God will keep us from evil. Yet, there are Christians who fall into evil. Is there a contradiction? I trow not. Why? We need to submit ourselves and have faith, otherwise, we will fall.

1 Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

We have to keep ourselves pure.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Our salvation is eternal as long as we obey Him.

You see, there seems to be a paradox. And it isn't compromise. It's Biblical fact. Both eternal security and the possibility of losing our salvation are correct. We are eternally saved as long as we choose to be. To say it is impossible to loose your salvation is careless.

Why are you so opposed to having anything to do with your salvation? We can't save ourselves, but we have to work with God on our salvation.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

This is a relationship with our God and creator who made us to give Him pleasure.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

To insist that we absolutely cannot lose our salvation after we receive Jesus into our heart is pure carelessness. This is a two-way relationship, even though we can't save ourselves, and we can do nothing to keep ourselves saved (as far as works and religious duties). God does the saving, but we need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. It isn't works, it's faith. When people lose faith and walk away from God (however improbable), I don't believe they are saved any more. They have chosen against God.

[Debau]

Matthew 13:4-6
"And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away."

Interesting point, Debu.

Matthew 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

All but one actually had life. Only one survived. Two died. This proves my point exactly. Based on this passage alone, my point is made. It is possible for someone to lose their salvation. Why, because two of the four seeds lived, then died. They were "saved", then fell away and were no longer "saved".

To say "well, they weren't really saved in the first place" is incorrect. Because, they were "saved", then perished.

That parable does not teach they were saved. Only the last one was saved. People can debate about the third one - but it is quite obvious in the first two cases that the Gospel did not bear fruit in their lives - therefore they were not saved.

Why are you so determined to push this? Do you like making people lost again, do you like making sure people question their salvation and cast doubts in their lives?

[Jeff]

What's it like getting up in the morning and wondering if you're still saved? Did I do enough good works yesterday to keep myself saved? Will I be able to continue to do enough good works for the entire rest of my life to keep myself saved?

It must be hard to have to grapple with these questions day after day.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Jeff

What's it like getting up in the morning and wondering if you're still saved? Did I do enough good works yesterday to keep myself saved? Will I be able to continue to do enough good works for the entire rest of my life to keep myself saved?

It must be hard to have to grapple with these questions day after day.

On the other hand maybe you're afraid of commitment. Maybe being trapped in a loving relationship you can never get out of scares you. Maybe you want more say in the matter. Maybe you want the option to try salvation for awhile and then throw it away if you decide it's not for you.

Of course, if someone enters a relationship with Jesus Christ with the mentality that they can leave at any time or that they must maintain their salvation, then they are truly not trusting in Him and His finished work - and therefore not saved. Sad!

Too many people think true salvation is some kind of prison. Here is a poem I wrote as a brand new believer when confronted with that mentality:

Confining Christianity?

To some unbelievers,
the Kingdom of Heaven
may seem like a prison....

Maybe it is...

One where you are closed in constantly
by strong arms of Righteousness,
and are always surrounded
by the Lord's unchanging Love.

Your only companions in this prison are
Rock-like fellow Christians
whose many myriad sins
Jesus Christ - God's own only begotten Son -
was painfully crucified for.

God's judgement is reigning down on us all:
"For those of you who believed, and trusted, and accepted
Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour -
You will get your just rewards...
You are sentenced to Life Eternal!"

This is the only prison
I don't think I can ever break out of...

But, you know, somehow I don't mind.

December 1992
Jerry Bouey

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand. My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one.
John 10:27-30

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:38-39