Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

It's probable that the soul, once it has left a man's body, takes on the exact shape and size of that man's body. In the case of damned souls, God may change their size & shape? I still think that "their worm" is referring to their soul, but whether or not it takes on the shape of an actual worm I do not know. Dr Ruckman thinks that their shape will degenerate into a form resembling their father the Devil, that old slithering serpent.

Yep, it's in his commentary.
And like yourself, I am not sure about all this either brother.
Oliver B. Greene believed as you do, but he avoided any details.

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

I've been thinking about the phrase Christ used three times in Mark chapter 9 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched", and if this worm is another creature and not the soul itself, then the text is not teaching eternal damnation of the soul, but only teaching that the worm creature never dies? See what I mean, jellybean?

I don't follow you brother, but clearly you have sucked me into this cursed worm debate once more (you rascal).

Okay let's see...

The word "damnation" does not appear anywhere in this chapter, however:

I see the UNQUENCHING FIRE no less than six times in that passage.

I see the word HELL no less than three times in there.

So, whether this worm is the human soul or a devouring maggot that never dies, it would have no bearing on the fact that there is severe and everlasting BURNING punishment implied.

I still think these are the supernatural worms of hell which cover Lucifer (Satan) in Isaiah 14:9-15.

Furthermore, I think the the rich man in hell appeared to Abraham as a MAN in flames. Abraham seemed to recognize this fellow as a human, for he detailed his life on earth and referred to him as a "son" not a degenerated worm without hands or feet, etc.

Food for thought, just food for thought.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Furthermore, I think the the rich man in hell appeared to Abraham as a MAN in flames. Abraham seemed to recognize this fellow as a human, for he detailed his life on earth and referred to him as a "son" not a degenerated worm without hands or feet, etc.

That's true, but that was in "hell" NOT in the "lake of fire". Two different locations, one is a temporary 'prison' until the resurrection of the dead, and the other is their final and permanent destination, and that's the context of Isaiah 66:24 which Jesus was referring to.

Brings up an interesting point, those in hell will be resurrected before they are tossed into the lake of fire, so maybe they retain their human form until the resurrection and then begin their degeneration once in the lake!

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

That's true, but that was in "hell" NOT in the "lake of fire". Two different locations, one is a temporary 'prison' until the resurrection of the dead, and the other is their final and permanent destination, and that's the context of Isaiah 66:24 which Jesus was referring to.

Brings up an interesting point, those in hell will be resurrected before they are tossed into the lake of fire, so maybe they retain their human form until the resurrection and then begin their degeneration once in the lake!

Problem is, that would mean the human soul is a worm, and we have already covered that. These horrible creatures are not human souls, not degenerated former human-worms, not armless men, not maggot-men, not worm-boys, not homo-sapiens-worms, and not cute little wiggle-worms. The little book Ruckman preaches about called "Beyond Death's Door" by Dr. Maurice Rawlings gives a good description; they are big and nasty enough to be considered as "red snakes" by a patient who apparently died and saw them in chapter one. The description of that hellish vision convinced the atheist Rawlings to reconsider his position of "higher learning" and get saved. (the fact that the patient's hair was standing on end probably helped).

Let's review...

These creatures are made for a special purpose, they NEVER die, just like "the fire that NEVER shall be quenched." (Mark 9:43-48). These nasty worms are associated in scripture with hell and satan. (Isaiah 14:9-15).

God apparently used some unusual worms to devour Herod Agrippa in a matter of seconds (Acts 12:23), and we know God has used fiery serpents to torment and kill people (Numbers 21:6-9) so I have no problem seeing these as His instruments of eternal torment... just like the torment of those horrible flames.

To me the picture is clear; this means the child murderer who killed little six year old Adam Walsh and tossed his severed head in a Florida canal will not only BURN forever, he or she will be GNAWED UPON by worms, like rotten fruit for all eternity.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

Problem is, that would mean the human soul is a worm, and we have already covered that.

It's not a problem as far as I'm concerned brother.

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish

These horrible creatures are not human souls, not degenerated former human-worms, not armless men, not maggot-men, not worm-boys, not homo-sapiens-worms, and not cute little wiggle-worms. The little book Ruckman preaches about called "Beyond Death's Door" by Dr. Maurice Rawlings gives a good description; they are big and nasty enough to be considered as "red snakes" by a patient who apparently died and saw them in chapter one. The description of that hellish vision convinced the atheist Rawlings to reconsider his position of "higher learning" and get saved. (the fact that the patient's hair was standing on end probably helped).

I'm highly sceptical of these near-death/clinically dead experiences that people have written about, especially when they go into much detail about hell and it's inhabitants. A good example is "23 Minutes in Hell" by Bill Wiese:

http://spiritlessons.com/DOCUMENTS/B...nHell_Text.htm

"Bill Wiese saw the searing flames of hell, felt total isolation, and experienced the putrid and rotting stench, deafening screams of agony, terrorizing demons, and finally, the strong hand of God lifting him out of the pit.
"Tell them I am coming very, very soon!" "

To me this nullifies faith, I don't believe God allows people to see & experience supernatural things that would cause them to believe in Him. Sure, in Old Testament times God worked that way, through dreams and visions, but not in this Church Age.