[cb6445]

I agree Brother Tony. Don't know why they don't want to answer that question. It's a question I've been struggling with lately. I mean I agree with the Brother's response before mine. I know we're saved by GRACE through faith. But can a person really just believe in Jesus' existence and be saved? The bible says even the devils believe and they tremble, but is belief alone enough to save your soul from hell? Does not a person have to be drawn by the Holy Ghost and repent? Can a person have no intention whatsoever of turning from the sin and filth of this world, and just ask Jesus to save them just to avoid hell or use Jesus to get them out of their "problem"? I don't believe so! Anyway, can't wait to see you brother Tony! God's speed!

[Tmonk]

You are saved by Grace and Faith alone. But works tends to be a result after that. Part of those works could be considered turning away from sinful ways. But this is a complicated subject.

Read the Book of James again for some more info on the subject too. James and Paul emphasize different aspects of Salvation.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Tmonk

You are saved by Grace and Faith alone. But works tends to be a result after that. Part of those works could be considered turning away from sinful ways. But this is a complicated subject.

Read the Book of James again for some more info on the subject too. James and Paul emphasize different aspects of Salvation.

Gal. 2:1 ¶ Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

James 1:1 ¶ James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Monk, my friend, what tribe are you?

My aunt died of leukemia in 1973 and was saved on her deathbed. She died a few hours later. The capillaries in her body ruptured. She was a mass of bruises and looked like she had been in a barfight. She had no time to perform any works, either good or evil.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

According to James, not written TO me but FOR me, my aunt's faith was dead. Is she in hell?

I'm not being facetious. I'm asking a serious Bible question.

Grace and peace

Tony

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

My aunt died of leukemia in 1973 and was saved on her deathbed. She died a few hours later. The capillaries in her body ruptured. She was a mass of bruises and looked like she had been in a barfight. She had no time to perform any works, either good or evil.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

According to James, not written TO me but FOR me, my aunt's faith was dead. Is she in hell?

I'm not being facetious. I'm asking a serious Bible question.

It is an excellent question, and one that has caused a lot of confusion for people. I believe that the answer is that your aunt was given Christ's faith and along with it Christ's works. So her faith was "not without works."

Since, as James says, faith is dead without works, faith and works go hand-in-hand. The question is who's "faith" we have.

This changes for different dispensations. Note:

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

(His being "the just.")

But for us:

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Of course, we must have faith in Christ, and we must believe in Christ:

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

I don't claim to have this all sorted out perfectly, but I do think it's clear that there is a difference between "of" and "in." The faith "of" Christ is a gift given to use by God after we believe:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

(Side note: I think Calvinism has greatly misunderstood the above verse. This is not about being given belief, it is about being given the faith of Christ.)

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

So whatever "works" that are required to make our faith "alive" (per James 2) have been done by Christ. That is not to say that we don't have our own works to do -- we do (1Th 1:3). But as for the works that bring us our righteousness and salvation, we can rest assured that someone far more reliable than ourselves is taking care of it.

Psalms 74:12 For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth.

[Brother Tim]

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

What an important alteration when moving from the OT to the NT! Inspired adjustment with new application.

[George]

Originally Posted by cb6445

"I agree Brother Tony. Don't know why they don't want to answer that question. It's a question I've been struggling with lately. I mean I agree with the Brother's response before mine. I know we're saved by GRACE through faith. But can a person really just believe in Jesus' existence and be saved? The bible says even the devils believe and they tremble, but is belief alone enough to save your soul from hell? Does not a person have to be drawn by the Holy Ghost and repent? Can a person have no intention whatsoever of turning from the sin and filth of this world, and just ask Jesus to save them just to avoid hell or use Jesus to get them out of their "problem"? I don't believe so! Anyway, can't wait to see you brother Tony! God's speed!"

Aloha brother Clint,

Sometimes the reason we don’t answer a question, is not because we don’t know the answer, but it gets tiresome (and a lot of work) repeating ourselves over and over again over an issue that is so very basic for anyone contemplating going into the ministry.

You asked the question: "can a person really just believe in Jesus' existence and be saved?" - the answer is NO! It is not enough to "believe in Jesus' existence" to RECEIVE the gift of eternal life (Salvation). A person must BELIEVE the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

In order to get saved a person MUST BELIEVE ON the Lord Jesus Christ:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

It is NOT enough to believe that Jesus Christ "existed" - lots of people believe that. A person MUST BELIEVE ON the Lord Jesus Christ. {That entails trusting in His FINISHED work on the Cross on our behalf ("Christ died for our SINS"), and Believing that His shed blood paid God's required price (for sin) and was sufficient for ALL of our sins.}

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The KEY verse that unlocks any confusion over one's salvation is John 1:12:

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If a person truly BELIEVES ON the Lord Jesus Christ (not just that He existed), they become sons of God (through Christ's sacrifice), and I guarantee that God is NOT going to toss His sons into Hell!

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

As you pointed out: believing that Jesus Christ "existed" is NOT enough - the devils "believe and tremble". But on the other hand, IF you BELIEVE ON the Lord Jesus Christ - that's a whole different story, that makes all the difference in the world. {The difference between RECEIVING eternal life and NOT receiving it - that is why the GOSPEL of the GRACE of God is so important.}

The following Links cover much of the information you are seeking:

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...86&postcount=5

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...3&postcount=84
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=117
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...1&postcount=12
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...9&postcount=13
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=261

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...71&postcount=1
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...0&postcount=30
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...77&postcount=5
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=107
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=254
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=247

The following Link tells what would happen to someone IF they could lose their salvation:

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...82&postcount=1

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by cb6445

I agree Brother Tony. Don't know why they don't want to answer that question. It's a question I've been struggling with lately. I mean I agree with the Brother's response before mine. I know we're saved by GRACE through faith. But can a person really just believe in Jesus' existence and be saved? The bible says even the devils believe and they tremble, but is belief alone enough to save your soul from hell? Does not a person have to be drawn by the Holy Ghost and repent? Can a person have no intention whatsoever of turning from the sin and filth of this world, and just ask Jesus to save them just to avoid hell or use Jesus to get them out of their "problem"? I don't believe so! Anyway, can't wait to see you brother Tony! God's speed!

Clint, the devils who believe were faced with Christ showing up to them in Person and saying, here I Am. These devils, evil spirits, are already damned, there is no salvation offered to them.

"Jailhouse religion" is calling on Jesus when we are busted, those with a criminal heart get out of jail, change identities, and continue in their crimes. So long Jesus.

"Repentence" is merely changing your mind, and many pop a cork when they see that the first recorded repentence in the bible was God:

Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Ex 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Every human is born with a throne in them, only one person can sit on that throne. Us, or God. When we unseat ourselves and let God sit, we change our minds towards Him and accept His sacrifice for us. That is Paul's gospel of Christ.

You have a problem all Christians have. Clint is going to do what he should not do and not do things he should. That's what Paul said. That's where grace abounds that while we are yet sinners He died for us. Sin is transgression of the law and you sin everytime you shave, according to the law.

Le 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

Only Christ kept the law, proving we could NOT. HE TOOK OUR PLACE. None are good, no, not one, but Him. You are going to struggle with your flesh all your earthly life.

Be of good cheer my friend. Go to Romans 8 and tell me what can separate Clint from the love of Christ? We are created to PERFORM good works, but we cannot walk in them or the good works of others. Our walk is by FAITH, not by SIGHT. That faith given to us as a gift, the faith of Christ He had on the cross as He suffered, as told in Eph. 2.

If I can answer a question for you, you need only ask my friend. I am looking forward to meeting you.

Grace and peace

Tony