Originally Posted by JMWHALEN

______

"Im saying if your truly saved and have given your life over to Jesus in submission than your fruit will show it (works)."

"truly saved"

Is that similar to "truly pregnant, truly dead, truly alive, truly white, truly black, truly sweet, truly bitter........?

Justification has nothing to do with you giving the LORD God anything, especially the life of a no-good, rotten, filthy sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in your place at Calvary, and your no-good, rotten, filthy life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ. You confuse justification with service/sanctification/"walk."

"the only way I can tell this is through their fruit."

How much "fruit?" You do not comprehend the gravity of sin. Sin is not just "wrong doing", it is "wrong being." Tell us how much "fruit" is required. And, while you are at it, if this is your(not my) "argument", tell us that you have met the requirement of "fruit." And what relevance is it, even if your "argument" is correct(and it is not), that "you can tell?"

"..are they moving closer to God? Are they trying to remove sin from their life and witness and do the Lord's work in whatever way they can."

This is sanctification, not justification.

"trying"

How much "trying"?


"but if you were a true believer of Christ for the past 20 years of your life and your works did not show any movement towards God, well I would have a hard time believing you were a true believer."


How many works would you say "qualified" that you "showed any movement towards God"? You have the wrong conception of sin. Those poor Corinthians, who are referred to as "saints." The Galatians would love this sermon.

And what distinguishes a "true" believer from a "not true" believer? Tell all of us what a "true believer" is, with specifics.


"repentance because it is one of the bigger things lacking in the church (carnal Christians and all that stuff) and how you need to turn from sin that it overwhelms the faith aspect of it. "

"turn from sin" is sanctification/service/"walk", not justification. The LORD God repented.

Sounds like a "Lordship Salvation" proponent here-a perversion of the gospel of Christ-Gal. 1)


In Christ,

John M. Whalen

Brother, let me ask you a few return questions.

Can you be paritally saved? From my understanding you can either be truly saved(I guess i could have phrased that better) or your not saved. People claim salvation who aren't saved, that is why I put the word truly there. I come from an area where many people say they are saved but walk in the ways of the world. A little prayer gets them into heaven and then their good to go, in their minds at least.

Salvation is black and white in God's eyes I would say. Or is their a gray area of he might be saved?

"Justification has nothing to do with you giving the LORD God anything, especially the life of a no-good, rotten, filthy sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in your place at Calvary, and your no-good, rotten, filthy life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ. You confuse justification with service/sanctification/"walk.""

If your life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ will you not be working for Him? Will you not be doing his will? If you are saved shouldnt you be growing in your walk, and serving him? Its not easy for everyone, for a lot its a battle, but if you have Christ you will win that battle and their will be a change in you.

Im not saying their is a required amount of fruit, Im saying that their should BE fruit (If you are a fruitless tree will you not be hewned down and thrown into the fire?), and that fruit comes from a willingness to be moving towards God. If you understand that the Lord God of all creation sent down his only Son to save you from eternal damnation and you did not want to learn more about Him and grow closer, well that person I do not believe understands the gravity of what they escaped from, and what price had to be payed for it.

"that "you can tell?"
What I get from this is that I should question everyones salvation? A believer knowing someone elses salvation is relevant, because how am I suppose to know if I should witness to them or not. I am just wondering if this was the intention behind that comment.

You say I do not understand the gravity of sin, but I do, my very being was sin before Christ, the very best I was capable of was nothing but filthy rags before the Lord.

I believe I clarified my point on the fruit aspect of it being a willingness to move towards the Lord will(I belive) result in having fruit (not a quanity but an existence of it) Some walks are stronger then others but it will exist.

I never once said that your works justify you before God, but as Brother Luke said, James is talking about justification before men. I will see someones faith through their works and that is how I will know if they are saved or not and if I should be witnessing to them.

But in all honesty, after rereading what I said, I need to not post on no sleep. I wrote that last night after being up all night the previous night due to Black Friday sales. And that could have been much better written. (Got me a laptop)

Im open to any reproaches or instructions because if I am wrong I want to know.

In Love,
-Timothy

[JMWHALEN]

Originally Posted by tkg

Brother, let me ask you a few return questions.

Can you be paritally saved? From my understanding you can either be truly saved(I guess i could have phrased that better) or your not saved. People claim salvation who aren't saved, that is why I put the word truly there. I come from an area where many people say they are saved but walk in the ways of the world. A little prayer gets them into heaven and then their good to go, in their minds at least.

Salvation is black and white in God's eyes I would say. Or is their a gray area of he might be saved?

"Justification has nothing to do with you giving the LORD God anything, especially the life of a no-good, rotten, filthy sinner. The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life in your place at Calvary, and your no-good, rotten, filthy life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ. You confuse justification with service/sanctification/"walk.""

If your life is replaced with the resurrected life of the Lord Jesus Christ will you not be working for Him? Will you not be doing his will? If you are saved shouldnt you be growing in your walk, and serving him? Its not easy for everyone, for a lot its a battle, but if you have Christ you will win that battle and their will be a change in you.

Im not saying their is a required amount of fruit, Im saying that their should BE fruit (If you are a fruitless tree will you not be hewned down and thrown into the fire?), and that fruit comes from a willingness to be moving towards God. If you understand that the Lord God of all creation sent down his only Son to save you from eternal damnation and you did not want to learn more about Him and grow closer, well that person I do not believe understands the gravity of what they escaped from, and what price had to be payed for it.

"that "you can tell?"
What I get from this is that I should question everyones salvation? A believer knowing someone elses salvation is relevant, because how am I suppose to know if I should witness to them or not. I am just wondering if this was the intention behind that comment.

You say I do not understand the gravity of sin, but I do, my very being was sin before Christ, the very best I was capable of was nothing but filthy rags before the Lord.

I believe I clarified my point on the fruit aspect of it being a willingness to move towards the Lord will(I belive) result in having fruit (not a quanity but an existence of it) Some walks are stronger then others but it will exist.

I never once said that your works justify you before God, but as Brother Luke said, James is talking about justification before men. I will see someones faith through their works and that is how I will know if they are saved or not and if I should be witnessing to them.

But in all honesty, after rereading what I said, I need to not post on no sleep. I wrote that last night after being up all night the previous night due to Black Friday sales. And that could have been much better written. (Got me a laptop)

Im open to any reproaches or instructions because if I am wrong I want to know.

In Love,
-Timothy

___
Timothy,


See http://av1611.com/forums/showthread....0180#post10180
post #3 and #4.


In Christ,

John M. Whalen

Brother, Ive read your posts 3 times now just to be fair, I just want you to be straightforward on 2 things for me. A: This conversation is actually the first time Ive heard the word "Lordship Salvation" come up. So can you define that for me. Im fairly sure I know what you mean from reading your posts but I just want it laid out simply for me.

B: I still stand by this point, Christ will make you a new creature when you are saved. If you are new, you arent the same. Something has changed, and there is some evidence of that. That evidence is key to understanding if someone is saved or not, and I believe God has that happen to us because 1: We are filled with the righteousness of Jesus Christ so the sin is getting the boot which means things change in your life whether it be friends, or things you possess, or things you do. It just naturally happens from what I have seen, you are a new creature and all things are made new. 2: It was put in place as a way to see if another person is saved so we know to witness to him or not.

Please specifically correct me if Im wrong and dont just point to your previous posts, point to where in them. Just so I dont get lost and know exactly what your going for.

Also, I still am new to the faith, It's been a little over 2 years, and in all honesty I feel like I havent even begun to understand anything, so I want to learn more, as much as possible about The Lord that saved me from eternal damnation and sacrificed Himself for me.

In Love,
-Timothy

[Luke]

Lordship Salvation, to give a simple definition - it puts the evidence of salvation as a prerequisite. In order to be saved, a sinner must repent of sins and forsake them etc, make a committment to serve God, live after Christ etc, and all of this is supposed to happen BEFORE a man gets saved. It's another gospel that is not another. Brother, I don't think you are guilty of it, because expecting holiness from a Christian is not Lordship Salvation, but you cannot demand holiness as a requirement for salvation.

[MC1171611]

What most people don't understand is that while the Born Again Christian is a new creature, the old creature is only dead in trespasses and sins: the OLD MAN still remains. As Paul spoke of many times, even he struggled with sin and wickedness in his flesh. It was not a sign of an unregenerate person: it is proof that every Christian has TWO natures, the nature of Adam, or a sinful, wicked nature, and the mind and heart of Christ, which is the New Man.

The only thing that really changes at Salvation is the regeneration of our souls and the Holy Spirit coming to dwell inside of us. Yes, He will lead us into all truth, but we aren't forced into following! A saved person is capable of anything and everything that a lost man is capable of; the difference between us and them is that we have the Holy Spirit of God in us, and we are commanded not to quench the Spirit. If we can quench the spirit, then obviously we are able to sin.

People take the Epistles of John and try to apply them doctrinally to us today; this is fallacy since they are located in the books written to the Tribulation saints, to whom also are written the Gospels (Gospel of the Kingdom, etc.). Most "Lordship Salvation" preachers use Matthew ("endure to the end") and Hebrews through Jude to peach that people who live in sin aren't saved. This simply isn't the case. It is true that many people who don't exhibit a change after salvation truly aren't saved, but I know of people that got truly born again and either backslid or never "got in." They show no fruit, and they'll have absolutely no rewards in Heaven, but they're just as saved as you or I.

[JMWHALEN]

Originally Posted by tkg

Brother, Ive read your posts 3 times now just to be fair, I just want you to be straightforward on 2 things for me. A: This conversation is actually the first time Ive heard the word "Lordship Salvation" come up. So can you define that for me. Im fairly sure I know what you mean from reading your posts but I just want it laid out simply for me.

B: I still stand by this point, Christ will make you a new creature when you are saved. If you are new, you arent the same. Something has changed, and there is some evidence of that. That evidence is key to understanding if someone is saved or not, and I believe God has that happen to us because 1: We are filled with the righteousness of Jesus Christ so the sin is getting the boot which means things change in your life whether it be friends, or things you possess, or things you do. It just naturally happens from what I have seen, you are a new creature and all things are made new. 2: It was put in place as a way to see if another person is saved so we know to witness to him or not.

Please specifically correct me if Im wrong and dont just point to your previous posts, point to where in them. Just so I dont get lost and know exactly what your going for.

Also, I still am new to the faith, It's been a little over 2 years, and in all honesty I feel like I havent even begun to understand anything, so I want to learn more, as much as possible about The Lord that saved me from eternal damnation and sacrificed Himself for me.

In Love,
-Timothy

_____--

See my other post/response along the same lines.

".. and there is some evidence of that."-tkg

Again,how much evidence? The question "evidences" not understanding the finality of the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is the subjective result of justification=your sanctification/your walk/your service, but not the basis of your justification. You show/demonstrate/display your "evidence" because you are a son, not to become a son. Again, "some evidence" focuses on you, and your comparison of your walk in service to others=wrong standard", and not the objective, "100%" standard of the Lord Jesus Christ, and His work at Calvary, and resurrection(1 Cor 15:1-4).


In Christ,

John M. Whalen

Brother John, you raise interesting points and I am taking time to reflect on them now. But first let me thank you for your timely response on this, I really do appreciate you taking time to explain the stance you have on all of this.

One other quick question I have is still how should I know who to witness too. I guess Im still trying to grasp the difference between justification/santification/sonship and all the other stuff you have stated. Youve thrown a lot of information at me at a fast speed so I am just trying to digest it all at the moment.

Edit: I guess Im just struggling on a practicality standpoint but again, Im still meditating on this.

But thank you again.

In love
-Timothy

[Luke]

Well, you should witness to everyone. You don't judge according to the outward appearance.

Originally Posted by Luke

Well, you should witness to everyone. You don't judge according to the outward appearance.

I didnt mean street witnessing persay, Im meaning more in a church situation. Where as not everyone who goes to a church is saved. So its more of someone you know, than a complete stranger.

[JMWHALEN]

Originally Posted by tkg

Brother John, you raise interesting points and I am taking time to reflect on them now. But first let me thank you for your timely response on this, I really do appreciate you taking time to explain the stance you have on all of this.

One other quick question I have is still how should I know who to witness too. I guess Im still trying to grasp the difference between justification/santification/sonship and all the other stuff you have stated. Youve thrown a lot of information at me at a fast speed so I am just trying to digest it all at the moment.

Edit: I guess Im just struggling on a practicality standpoint but again, Im still meditating on this.

But thank you again.

In love
-Timothy

Your welcome. Consider the "good news", the gospel of Christ as outlined in 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

1. News, by definition, is that which has already happened.
2. If there is "good news", then there has to be some "bad news. And thus, Romans chapter 3(and others!)= we all fall short of our Holy(the # one attribute of the LORD God in the Holy Bible)LORD God's righteous standards=bad news for sinners!
3. And hence, the need for a Saviour(saved=to be delivered from a danger), to be delivered from a danger,"the wages of sin...death", and the " bad news"!!!!!!

4. The good news!!!!!!The Lord Jesus Christ, and what He did!!!!!!


Is that not good news!

In christ,

John M. Whalen