Originally Posted by stephanos

Yeah, the NT age of grace gap is something I do intend to fully understand. Give me a decade or so to read the Bible a couple dozen times, then I'll share my opinion on it. I intend to find out if there is OT prophecy on this age of grace. I'd be concerned if there wasn't.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

I have read through the Bible a couple dozen times and have not found an OT prophecy about this "age of grace." You should be concerned.

Grace is all over the "Old Testament" as well.

Noah found grace, for example. (Genesis 6:8)

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever! (Hebrews 13:8)

Tandi

[geologist]

Originally Posted by Tandi

I have been on the fence about this issue, leaning more towards the Gap theory......until Geologist mentioned Cain being the offspring of the Serpent! That, and the teaching that Noah's flood did not leave even one fossil has turned me the other direction.

Winman, I agree with your points in this post and thank you for making them.

Shalom,

Tandi

I'm sorry to hear that. I wonder which upset your more, the comment about the serpent or the lack of fossils from Noah's flood?

I know I am on firm footing about Noah's flood and fossils, but I will admit that the other issue is a very dark doctrine. But consider these facts:

1. Satan appears throughout the Bible in many forms:

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

2. He can even appear as an angel:

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

3. Angels always appear as men, WITHOUT WINGS:

Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

see also:

Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Therefore, it is not beyond possibility that the "serpent" appeared to Eve in the form of a man, and probably a handsome one at that.

Thank about it.

[chette777]

Tandi,

Ruckman was the first one I heard say that Satan was the father of Cain. Jesus said to the Jew that their father was a murdered from the beginning and he was talking about Satan not Cain.

So if Jesus is true in what he said that Satan was a murderer when did Satan Physically kill anyone? remember Adam brought death on himself

I will say that the Scripture that Satan was a murderer "from the beginning" is a troublesome one that I have not resolved. (John 8:44). This is a Scripture that caused me to lean towards the Gap side.

Yet Genesis tells us Adam knew his wife, resulting in Cain and Abel (who may have been twins). The "serpent seed doctrine" is very troubling and has been considered heretical in many circles.

YEC's claim there is ample evidence for the fossil record being a result of the catastrophe in Noah's day.

I am still on the fence open to hearing all sides of these issues.

[Winman]

Satan did not physically kill Adam and Eve, but he deceived them which caused their spiritual death.

Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

As you can see, the LORD God did not hold the serpent blameless. While Adam and Eve chose to sin, Satan did indeed tempt them, and in that sense is their murderer.

If I told you for example that a cup of poison was simply harmless grape juice, and did so so convincingly that you were deceived, drank the poison and died, do you not believe I would be responsible and a murderer?

And when the Bible says one is born of God, or that Satan is their father, it is not talking about physical birth, it is talking about spiritual birth. When Adam sinned, he took on the spirit of Satan, which he passed down to his children.

Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

So Seth was born with the fallen sin nature of his father Adam, not the sinless nature of God.

This is the sin nature of the natural man. We are all born with this sinful nature. It is by receiving Jesus Christ that we are born again and receive the nature of God.


1 Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

So all unsaved people have the spirit and mind of the devil Satan. This is why Jesus said:


John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And Satan is the father of lies, he lied when he told Eve:

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

[Winman]

And I wouldn't say there was a gap concerning the Church. There are many prophesies in the OT concerning the heathen or Gentiles.

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

This last verse was repeated by Peter in Acts

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

There are many verses in the OT about the Church age, although very few may have understood.

[chette777]

Before Lucifer was the serpent in the Garden, he did lead to the destruction of legions of angels. who also have yet to have their final sentence executed. So under the same pretense Satan was a murderer before he beguiled Mrs Adam because the Angels were led astray by the same beguilement as Mrs Adam was. But each and every person is responsible for their own sin none of us can blame Satan. we saw that didn't work well in Gen3. It is sinful to beguile.

Are not we so glad that all if not most of what has been shared in this thread are not essential to our Salvation. I am grateful the we have not all the answers but we have the Holy Ghost who can lead us into all truth.

[Winman]

Chette

Now, I agree with you completely on that. I do believe that 1/3 of the angels chose to follow Satan in his rebellion leading to their destruction. I believe that happened between Gen 1:31 where God saw every thing he had made and it was very good, and Gen 2:1 where he approached Eve and deceived her.

You argued before that this is a gap of silence. And you are correct. But we have a verse stating everything God made was good, and the very next verse shows the serpent (Satan) evil. So obviously something changed.

And you do the same thing when you argue the Gap. There is nothing between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 whatsover. Nothing. The problem with the Gap is that Gen 1:31 contradicts your belief that Satan rebelled in Gen 1:1.

A six day creationist does not have to contend with a contradiction of scripture like you do.

And Exo 20:11 again says God created heaven (not heavens), using the EXACT same word as Gen 1:1 in SIX DAYS. And it includes "all that in them is" which would have to include Satan and all other angels.

Gen 20: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Now, I know you are going to talk about your "24/7 time", but you have nothing in scripture to support that. That is simply the invention of someone trying to create this Gap theory.

Show me scriptures that support this supposed different time in Gen 1:1 that differs from the time in Gen 1:2 that you believe in.

So, you have to make all sorts of convoluted arguments to make your theory work. And still it contradicts many scriptures. But six day creation does not have to twist the scriptures in any way, and there are no contradictions.

[CKG]

And I wouldn't say there was a gap concerning the Church. There are many prophesies in the OT concerning the heathen or Gentiles.

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

This last verse was repeated by Peter in Acts

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

There are many verses in the OT about the Church age, although very few may have understood.

Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong (which I'm prone to do), but OT prophecies about the gentiles and heathen does not mean they apply to the church. That God would bless the Gentiles is evident (Isaiah 11:10), but the church was still a mystery (Ephesians 3). Acts 2:39 has to do with the promise of Acts 2:38. Acts 2:14 concerns the end times as God has not yet poured out His Spirit on all flesh.

The teaching that Satan had sex with Eve is speculation and speculation only no matter who teaches it. BTW I have many books and commentaries by Dr. Ruckman and have been greatly blessed by his ministry.

So Seth was born with the fallen sin nature of his father Adam, not the sinless nature of God.

Well there's another one of those popular theological phrases not found in the Bible and when I say Bible I mean the KJV as this popular theological phrase is found in the NIV.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by Tandi

I have read through the Bible a couple dozen times and have not found an OT prophecy about this "age of grace." You should be concerned.

Grace is all over the "Old Testament" as well.

Noah found grace, for example. (Genesis 6:8)

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever! (Hebrews 13:8)

Tandi

So you don't think we live in an age of grace? You think Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks (Daniel 9:24-27) was fulfilled?

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen