[bibleprotector]

In this response, I aim to present things which would be edifying/instructional to the general reader. Note, “KJB” means King James Bible. I do not say “KJV” as though it is only one of many versions in the world to be used. I say “KJB” because I think it is the Bible for everyone in the world.

Well then according to you God's perfect words never existed until 1611. God's promise to preserve his words in every generation in Ps. 12:6-7 was a lie if your logic be true.

God’s perfect Word existed in heaven and in inspiration, and was scattered in many copies, versions and translations, even as we observe today. But there was never a manifestation of one Bible having the perfect text and translation until 1611. Any good copy, version or translation has been because of God’s preservation, and these copies have been sufficient for salvation and Christian doctrine, but they were not 100% text and translation perfect.

You know full well that only half the Bible was on earth when Psalm 12 was written, so you cannot say that God’s perfect Word existed on Earth in the days of King David. The only perfect Word that existed was what had been written to that time. And even if there was a text-perfect single collection of scrolls of the OT, we know that the entire Bible was never perfect in one form until 1611, nor was the single perfect OT library accessible for many years (e.g. after 70 A.D.) Yet we had many faithful copies, wherein were scattered the true readings, which required a process of gathering, as is shown by the Bomberg printing and by Protestant Bibles, and finally by the KJB.

I believe that the Gomez Spanish Bible is Scripture and is part of God’s provision, etc., but I think that the KJB is overtaking and replacing it. And it is really not wise to try and make new foreign versions now, but to shift focus onto having the KJB as international standard (a long term goal, perhaps not immediately viable in many cases).

The truth is that the KJV translators were not receiving direct revelation from God as the original writers were.

Yes, but if they are Christians, they have God’s spirit and they are vessels in His providence. Of course the KJB translators were not inspired, and of course they looked at a mass of evidence.

And they wouldn't have included alternate readings in the marginal notes.

NO NO NO! If you say “alternate” you say that the margin is equal to or as valid as the text. You are saying the KJB as it stands is NOT perfect. No, the margin notes are the chaff. They show rejected readings, other translations, various notes, etc. They are NOT to be used to find the “real meaning”, they are NOT to be used as “Scripture”!

You are assuming that the margin notes render the actual text of the KJB as imperfect. You are allowing that there are other possible and valid translations WHICH STILL PERSIST. I am showing that the last time there was a possible valid English translation outside the KJB was when the Geneva Version was still being used by some poor Christian. That must have been over two centuries ago.

When they came to the words "ma genomia", they did not translate them literally because it would have been an awkward rendering in English. Ma genomia is literally "let it not be".

This is no issue: they translated sense-for-sense (which is usually literal, but not always, as you rightly say).

[quote]translate the expression. And in this case the expression was "never, never".[/[quote]

No that is not the perfect Word of God. That might be a possible translation, but it is imperfect. It also constitutes an error, because if you believe the KJB is perfect, you would not allow “never, never" to be Scripture in English. And you are writing in English using English words here. Persisting in wanting to allow “never, never" as a form of Scripture in English, as though that was what Paul was really (or could be) saying is a dangerous doctrine.

Any student of Greek on the planet will tell you and any Greek lexicon

Christians today are not supposed students of this sort, or consulters of divinations where the meaning of the KJB is undermined because DIFFERENT WORDS than the KJB are used in their definitions, which equals dangerous error. The KJB has the words of God, we do not need other "sources" to undermine and/or confuse the issue.

But you're trying to totally change simple grammar rules

No, abandoning “Greek and Hebrew” mystery doctrine is not changing grammar, it is imposing the correct English as standard over and above the twisting of words and meaning of the original languages as is manifestly done today. We have at our fingertips the perfect English Bible, why would we want or allow the imposing of VARYING meanings of words from “scholars” onto it? By implying that the Greek does not actually say what the KJB says, you are denying the perfection of the KJB. Even if it is by making it a relative argument, like, the KJB translators were just trying to make the best English expression, but someone else will do it differently. To do that is to undermine the perfection of the KJB. “God forbid” is perfect. You cannot have any variation that is as good.

Nobody said anything about the word of God being "locked up" anywhere.

Why do you keep talking about Greek words and then giving English meanings to them which differ to the KJB? Surely the perfect Scripture is in English, not locked up in Greek! (Why consult many sources when the perfection is already finalised in the KJB?)

[quote]all of a sudden I'm not a true Bible-believer[quote]

To be KJB-only means you believe it is a perfect text and that it is a perfect translation. You might believe the Scripture, but it is not “King James Bible only”. If it is not KJBO, then you do not have a final knowledge of every reading, because readings vary between versions, and it cannot be final knowledge of the translation/sense, because any word outside the KJB has a different meaning, and with other languages, many times slight variations in meaning are there because the other language is not identical to English.

That is EXACTLY what Inspiration is.

The Bible does not say that inspiration is “breathed out”, because the term “breathed out” does not appear in the KJB. (I know that "breathed out" is the terminology of someone who attempted to define a Greek word rather than an English one.)

“But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.” (Job 32:8). Inspiration must mean “spirit in”. God must have put His words through His spirit in the man [see postscript], and the process of writing out the Scripture was by this being present in the penman. This can be seen where the prophet spoke and the scribe wrote, or where the apostle wrote the letter with his own hand. At the end of the inspiration process, the written words were inspired, and the Bible in English retains this nature in its words today.

[quote]I asked: Do other good foreign translations have the degree of perfection as is found in the very use of the spelling, punctuation, words and grammar of the KJB?

Answer: If they don't, they can. That's what TRANSLATING is all about.[quote]

Of course no translation is perfect like the KJB is, but the point is that we cannot make another perfect translation. The Gomez has faults. Therefore, it must be better to encourage people to learn English, and to teach them English, so that they can use the perfect KJB.

No, I don't have to see the Greek and Hebrew as former things since God has chosen to preserve His words in those languages as well as the English of the KJV.

1. Who today is using Bible Hebrew or Bible Greek as their first or only language? Answer: NO ONE.

2. Where is the perfect Bible or testament in Hebrew or Greek that has exactly the right readings, and the right meaning associated to words, so that the word for lapwing is not said to be a hoopoe, or the word for Easter is not said to be passover, etc. Answer: NO WHERE.

3. Since the Word of God is perfectly preserved in English, why would God still need to retain the Hebrew and Greek where there is no certain presentation of the perfect Word of God in exact extant form? Answer: NO NEED TO GOD.

4. Why would Christians need Hebrew and Greek for their doctrine, teaching or Bible study (other than to prove that the KJB is right)? Answer: NO NEED TO US.

5. Did God fail to get His word into the language of the Gentiles > English perfectly, so that He has to keep Hebrew and Greek as a failsafe/back up/repository of His “real” Scripture? Answer: NO.

6. Would God be failing His promise if He was preserving the Scripture perfectly in English for the world? Answer: NO.

I said: But you see that it is there 100% in English, right down the very jot and tittle

Reply: No, you don't. You pray and trust that with God all things are possible.

Of course we see that the Word of God is perfectly in English to the jot and tittle, and that Matthew 5:18 is fulfilled by the KJB. If God’s words are not jot and tittle present and correct in the KJB, where ON EARTH are they? Show them to the world! That is exactly why the KJB should grow to go forth to all nations.

You though the Gospel = the Word and tried to use 1 Pet. 1:21-23 to try to prove this error.

“And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.” (1 Peter 1:25). Is this passage error?

the Gospel is in 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

Is 1 Cor. 15:1-4 in the Word of God? Yes or no?

Is my “the Gospel = the Word” statement error?

NOT EVERYONE SPEAKS ENGLISH. And many never will.

We’ll see. “When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.” (Deut. 18:22).

If that be true, than the world was without the perfect words of God between 100-1611 AD and Ps. 12:6-7 and scores of other verses on Preservation are a lie.

No, the perfect text and translation is only present in English today. The Word of God is generally available as it has been for centuries in many copies, versions and translations. That is sufficient, but God is one who does perfect works, which means the result of the furnace of earth is a seven-time purified Bible.

When God spoke His words to the original writers, He did not speak in English to the Apostles and Prophets. He spoke in Hebrew and Greek.

They wrote in Hebrew and Greek.

He promised to preserve these original words, which were given in Hebrew and Greek.

No, you are reading the word “original” or “Hebrew and Greek” into Scripture. When Jesus said the jots and tittles would not fail, that means English, not Hebrew and Greek. The word “jot” and the word “tittle” are English words describing English letters and punctuation. Not one chapter and verse limits the Scripture to the originals only. Clearly, you are not KJBO if you believe that the perfection/preservation of Scripture is still locked up in the original languages.

[quote]Notice he promised to preserve WORDS, not manuscripts, not ink and paper, which accounts for why we do not have the Original Autographs. We don't need them anyways because...[quote]

Yes, and we have many translations made, e.g. in the Reformation.

[quote]God preserved these Inspired words ... by providentially guiding His people (Ps. 78) to tirelessly copy His words over and over again and pass them down from generation to generation.[quote]

But there was a point where single manuscripts were not perfect. However, if taken collectively, the perfect Word could be discerned, which was a process which manifested especially between 1517 and 1611. The KJB being supersuccessionary to the Bomberg and TR editions.

In 1602-1611, God providentially guided the KJV translators to culminate these different preserved manuscripts into an English translation - the KJV.

Yes.

In the late 1800s, Scrivener took Beza's 5th edition of the Greek NT (TR), which was the primary Greek text used by the KJV translators, and edited it in only 190 place. For these 190 places, he collated 18 different editions of the Textus Receptus to find readings that mirrored the exact wording of the KJV.

So what.

Therefore, what Scrivener produced was a Greek New Testament that is an exact Greek representation of what the KJV says in English.

It isn’t, but even if it was, why go back to Greek when perfection is already manifest in English? Scrivener’s Greek NT is not going to be the same as the KJB. In fact, if used properly, this TR is only a scholarly apparatus to help prove the superiority of the KJB. The KJB is perfect, whereas Scrivener’s TR is not. What the people of the world need is God’s Word in the global tongue, not Scrivener’s TR or a translation made from it.

the meticulous care of copying God's words in the OT by the orthodox Jews

Which indicates why we can be sure the KJB is correct.

My point is that God promised to preserve His words. Today the prominent Bible that He has placed His stamp of approval upon when it comes to perfection is the KJV.

And now God is advancing the approved KJB to be the one Bible for all the world, because it is perfect.

If we stick to the KJV as the guide and standard for translating we can't go wrong.

Since you admit that learning is not the same today as 1611, and the KJB is best, why not stick with the KJB where you can’t make a mistake, rather than trying to make a translation where you will make many mistakes?!

We have no record of God ever saying anything in English to anybody. God spoke in Hebrew and Greek, and He providentially guided the KJV translators to translate those words into English.

If so, we don’t need Hebrew and Greek any more. And we don’t need to waste our time and resources in pushing other translations either. Can we seriously claim that the Gomez Spanish Bible was “providentially guided”? I know that the makers of it meant well. But we are looking to align with God’s continuing providence, and it is in the line of the KJB for the whole world.

Accurately translating God's words is not usurping anything ESPECIALLY when the KJV is being used as the standard.

Since the KJB is standard, nothing else can be. Therefore the trend of other translations should not continue to be upheld.

[quote]The Bible does not teach that the Great Commission is to promote Anglo-phone culture and teach English. The Great Commission is to preach the Gospel.[quote]

The Bible does allow for Anglo-Protestantism to be promoted, and using English to preach to the KJB to the world fulfils that part of the great commission. However, nations need to be taught, and this means having a model. Clearly, elements from Anglophone culture are going to be the best to use, while every nation yet retains its own identity. (We are not banning chop sticks because we think cutlary is better.)

I said: this idea is furthered so EVENTUALLY that all nations are taught one Word.

Reply: Chapter and verse.

Plenty, Zeph. 3:9 and Matthew 24:14 just for starters. What is the "pure language"? What is "this Gospel"?

Isa. 28:11 has nothing to do with evangelizing Jews with the KJB.

Really? Are God’s chosen people stuck with an imperfect Hebrew New Testament? And where is a perfect Hebrew OT today? Since many Jews can speak English, it is providential, so that the KJB can be used to preach to them.

I said: Scripture plain{ly} prophesies that it is the GENTILES who are to begin to convert the Jews?

Reply: It does? Where? Chapter and verse.

Today Gentiles should begin reaching the Jews effectively, which will come to finality with the salvation of Israel after the Church has left, see Romans 11:11, Romans 10:19, Romans 11:31, etc.

You are the one accusing us of forfeiting our responsibility to carry out the Great Commission by not teaching everyone English so they can read the KJV.

No. I am saying teaching English furthers and is the way to fulfil the Great Commission.

Wrong, it is not "our religion" that will convert the Jews.

What? If not Christianity, then how will the Jews become Christian? They are supposed to be in the same Body of Christ as we are.

English may be the most learned and used secondary language in the world, but there are THOUSANDS of language groups in the world that are not learning English and most of whom never will. Jesus Christ can come back any time now and if He came back tomorrow somehow I doubt very seriously that everyone on earth is going to magically learn English overnight.

Since English is widely used, we should use the KJB. Since some people do not yet know English, we should teach them, so they can use the KJB too. And Christ may not come for 20, 50, 100 years or whatever, so don’t forfeit our responsibility to make long term plans of world evangelisation as though we are going to fail. We are talking long term, an agenda which begins as a seed today.

And that number is dwindling every day as the days of Apostacy and Apathy before Christ's return grows. Your fantasy of "millions" of English teachers is not happening.

Maybe you haven’t realised, but Christ is about to spue a whole bunch of junk out of His body. And there are many many passages which speak of the last days glory and restitution of the Church before the translation. I am not talking about Dominion Theology, which is an error. I am talking about a powerful, spotless Church with nation-changing Christianity.

The Lord said to pray for labourers, so don’t call the millions of harvesters a “fantasy”. We are entering into the times of restitution. Why let the spirit of antichrist have all the power today?

“Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.” (James 5:7).

“Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.” (1 Peter 2:12).

“And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.” (Rev. 14:16). This is not just a Tribulation prophecy, it is also pre-Tribulation Historicist.

“So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.” (Isaiah 59:19). That standard is the KJB for all nations.

These are just some of the verses showing the “restitution supersuccessionary doctrine”. Having the KJB for all is in line with that.

Great idea, only except IT'S NOT HAPPENING.

1. We walk by faith, not by sight.

2. The Scripture said it generally would happen, and God is not a liar.

3. Specific verses show it, e.g. “All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.” (Psalm 22:27). Don’t explain away prophecy by saying “in the Millennium”.

I said: now we are giving the world one language so that we can have one Bible.

Reply: No we're not.

Er, God is in control, we are on God’s side, therefore we are bringing the world to English so that we (not God for us) can bring the KJB to all.

Even if you was right that there is no perfect Spanish Bible, you are assuming based on one language issue that of the nearly 7000 languages in the world there can be no perfect Bible.

The only perfect text and translation is the KJB. Why rob the world of the perfect Word? Why not get them to learn English and believe the KJB? After all, many already know English.

POSTSCRIPT: I would venture that most foreign translations do not rightly divide between the "spirit" of God and the "Spirit" of God. Furthermore, would the Spanish version specifically be altered in 1 John 5:8 to change "Espíritu" to "espíritu"?