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Old 06-22-2009, 10:08 PM
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tonybones2112 tonybones2112 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jassy View Post
How do I refute false doctrine from Christians who say that we are "spiritual Israel" and, therefore, must keep the Law, including the Sabbath? This person keeps emailing me and telling me that I'm breaking the Law that we are supposed to be keeping by not observing the Sabbath.

A little background: I used to be a member of the Worldwide Church of God, under Armstrong - but I came to see the incorrectness of what was being taught, the more I read the KJV Bible (rather than their books!), the more God opened up my understanding and I could see their errors.

I tried to search here at the Forum, but it won't allow me to search with a PHRASE, only a WORD. I wanted to search for threads regarding the so-called doctrine that we are "spiritual Israel." I know that is FALSE but I don't know how to prove it. This person keeps sending me emails regarding the LAW and the Sabbath, telling me that if JESUS is in me, then I should be able to PERFECTLY keep the Law, just as He (Jesus) did. I told him that we're not under the Law anymore but under grace, and that he is failing to rightly divide the Scriptures. So, now he is picking and choosing verses from Paul, not understanding the context.

Can anyone help me with refuting that false doctrine?

He uses the following Scriptures to make his case:

Galatians 3:29 - And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and the fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold before the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shall be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

I've tried to show him Romans 6:14 - "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace."

He keeps pointing out Scriptures like Romans 2:13 - "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

And Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

And Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God to every one that believeth.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

And Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

And Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

I'm so tired of him wrestling with the Scriptures, in trying to pull me back under the law! I won't go back under the law, because being under grace is true FREEDOM in Christ.

He is more an SDA - but says he doesn't belong to a church.

Can anyone help me with this?

He's SDA Jassy, they are just as deceptive as Mormons are with their "friendshipping" method of "evangelizing'.

In nearly 30 years dealing with cults I've found in most cases the individual is a lost sinner like any biker you want to encounter on the street. If they are saved it's a deal where the heart has believed unto salvation in spite of the mind, which is clogged with cultic doctrines. Jassy, I believe you are Scripturally grounded sister, and able to deal with this person. You have to be. In Acts for example, the sheet God let down in Peter's vision, the SDA will tell you, well, I think that was just a one time thing. If a Christian is not on their toes, they'll be on their nose with these cultists.

I've found little difference in Armstrong followers and SDAs, Armstrong was an ex-SDA. This constant back and forth between you and this person tells me that he probably by this time has given up on converting you, is examining your Scriptural arguments, and is using you as a whetrock to hone his own skills at countering your approach. See, the dispensational approach is something these cultists find difficult in countering. I want to cite the typical "debate" between a Church Of Christ and an IFB and then my own two debates I had with two COC "evangelist/elders" and the result.

In any typical debate between an IFB and COC, the debate will center around Acts 2:38 and water baptism as being necessary for the remission of sins. The COC will say it was efficacious then, it's efficacious now. The IFB will counter with arguing the meaning of the Greek word "for"("eis") meaning not necessarily "for" but "because of" the remission of sins. COC position is that it was operative for remission then, it's operative today.. The IFB position is it was not operative for remission then, it's not operative now. The objective judge of the debate will usually declare it a draw, both sides will declare themselves the winner.

Seeing the issue rightly divided though, we see the Scriptural truth and sound doctrine on the matter: The KJV translators knew exactly what they were doing, "for" means FOR the remission of sins. Water baptism was operative for remission of sins then, it's not operative for anything now.

The most hardened and seasoned COC debater is not prepared for this approach, I found that out in debating two of them. On both nights, at the beginning, I spent less than 90 seconds on Acts 2:38 and concentrated on Jesus Christ's baptism: work of righteousness or unrighteousness, yes or no? Basing that on Titus 3:5, the debate was basically over and I spent two nights each time preaching the cross rather than the water tank and the three Biblical dispensations. The objective moderators of both debates declared me the winner of both, 18 minutes into the first one and 22 into the second one. Here's the kicker:

A memo went out from the local district council of Churches Of Christ stating no more debate offers were to be made to me. I saw the original memo.

Here's my point and advice to you:

You need to map out a program of dispensational teaching that touches not only on the Law, on dispensational teaching overall. The difference between a Jew and Gentile, Israel and the Church, plus in his case the fact that nothing was "restored" in the 1800s, as they claim Ellen White did the SDA teaching.
Ellen White is impeached at the start by the fact that, ladies, I didn;t make this rule, God did, no woman is Scripturally qualified to found a "denomination" or teach a "restoration" of any "lost doctrine". Not Aimee Semple McPherson, not Joyce Meyer, not Gloria Copeland, Jan Crouch, Tammy Faye Bakker. You are, because you are a minister of the reconciliation, an ambassador for Christ, not a church or denomination founder.

He needs to understand the 3 Biblical dispensations: Time past, But now, Ages to come. He needs to know the present Body of Christ is a mystery, never prophesied until reveal to Paul. That's the gospel of Christ, Christ crucified provides our salvation through faith in it apart from the works of the Law. That's Grace, that is what Paul called "my gospel". In teaching the true dispensationalism of Ephesians 2 in 3 dispensations, you are preaching the gospel of the cross for everybody. Not of works lest any man boast.

Jassy you need to not let him have the initiative nor "equal" approach but you must take the initiative away from him and make every one of his thoughts captive for Christ.

If you studied the encyclopedia we wrote for Tandi, you'll see what was said, and can map out your own program in dealing with him, in dealing with anybody. With Tandi we gave her as much Scripture as we could because His words will not return unto Him void, and won't when you deal with this person.

Any further help I can offer just ask sister.

Grace and peace to you.