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Old 07-07-2009, 09:58 PM
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Luke Luke is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Gord View Post
:Brother Luke,
If you took the time to study this, you would know the answer, rather that formating your ideas and statements on the quotes of the hearsay of others who likewise did not take the time to search the scriptures for specific answers.
This is just a plain out accusation with no foundation. You assume I know nothing, yet it would appear that I know more about what you believe than you do... without trying to sound proud, because I am not in this situation, I will try to educate you in your own belief system...

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Originally Posted by Luke View Post
.....

Let me ask you this. Since you believe "God elected those for his glory and that is His Grace.", why did he reject billions more, if he actually wants them to be saved? God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Eze 33:11), and yet, according to you, God intentionally reprobated or passively passed them by, depending on your lapsarian view, for his sovereign pleasure, when he could have elected them.


Eze*18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

The Bible says that all things were created for His pleasure Re*4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created., but Eze*33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways;

This does not look like intentional reprobation, rather it looks to me like keeping his promise of justice to all who sin, with as he points out no pleasure. Justice is not supposed to be fun.
Ezekial 18:23 and 33:11 both say what I was saying - that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Rev 4:11 says all things were created for His pleasure.

Now, here is where you spin out... I never said anything about reprobation from Eze 33:11. I simply stated that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Now, to link them up, and I quote myself with some modifications -

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Calvinists believe that God intentionally reprobated or passively passed them (the wicked) by, depending on your lapsarian view, for his sovereign pleasure, when he could have elected them.
According to the Calvinist view, God takes pleasure in reprobation. I'll explain what the lapsarian views are.

By lapsarian view, I mean the order of God's decree. There are generally three views. Sub, Supra and Infra. There are supposedly five parts to God's eternal decree. Here they are in no particular order

i) The decree to elect some to salvation and leave others to their just condemnation. (some modify this to include the purposeful reprobation of the wicked, rather than the passive "leaving others")
ii) The Decree to create all men
iii) The Decree to permit the fall
iv) The Decree to provide salvation for men
v) The Decree to apply salvation to men

Those are given in no order. The three different lapsarian views attempt to put in order God's decrees.

The Sublapsarian view puts them in this order

i) Decree to create all men.
ii) Decree to permit the fall.
iii) Decree to elect those who do believe and to leave in just condemnation those who do not believe.
iv) Decree to provide salvation for men.
v) Decree to apply salvation to those who believe.

In this order, God creates all men, permits the fall, elects those who believe and then provides Jesus Christ as the means to redeem those he has elected.

The Infralapsarian view puts them in this order

i)Decree to create all men.
ii)Decree to permit the fall.
iii)Decree to provide salvation for men.
iv)Decree to elect those who do believe and to leave in just condemnation all who do not believe.
v)Decree to apply salvation to those who believe.

This view is normally taken by more moderate calvinists. Charles Stanley, Lewis Sperry Chafer and most older dispensationalists held to this view. It is similar to the Sub view...

And then there is the Superlapsarian view. This is the consistent view of most calvinists especially presbyterians, as well as men like John Piper, Paul Washer, A.W. Pink, Sproul, Ryle etc.

i)Decree to elect some to be saved and to reprobate all others.
ii)Decree to create men both elect and non-elect.
iii) Decree to permit the fall.
iv) Decree to provide salvation for the elect.
v) Decree to apply salvation to the election.

Here is the most consistent calvinist view of God's eternal decrees. Except the order given directly makes God the author of all sin.

You see, according to the common calvinist view, God elects those who he would save BEFORE he even permits the fall, before he provides salvation, before he decrees anything else. It's not that he looks on all mankind and sees none worthy of salvation and has grace on some anyway, but that he "sovereignly" decrees some to heaven while reprobating all others and so the fall is the means to reprobation. Everything that follows is simply to complete this "secret will" of divine reprobation. God created the elect and non elect because he had already decreed to save some and damn others. He FORCED the fall because he had already decreed to save some and damn others. He provides salvation for those he chose to save while leaving the others without hope. And he forcibly saves those He chose while forcibly offering no hope to those he willed to perish.

So you still didn't answer my question

Does God take pleasure in damning souls to eternity that he personally reprobated, or does it sadden him? And if it saddens Him, why did he do it? And if he willed it all to happen, as the common calvinist interpretation sees it, why does He say it's not His will to see any perish?



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A typical Arminian response to not knowing the scripture well enough, or, in your training, you have come to listen to what those around say rather that seek the truth for yourself. I don't adhere to either or your suppositions, rather the scripture tells us
And here it is! Everyone that is not calvinist is Arminian. You have been taught well. You'll find I will very rarely accuse a man of not knowing scripture well enough. Because anyone can know the scripture well enough to support their own view. It's not about knowing the most, it's about knowing the truth.

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1Ti*2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Lu*13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Ro*2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
2Pe*3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Those verses are great. But it doesn't answer the question, since that is what most of us have been saying. It is NOT God's will that ANY perish. And yet I showed you above how the common Calvinist view (Supralapsarianism) says the very opposite!
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In other words, ever since Adam, all man will face the justice of God, DEATH. That is not God choosing some to die, he already granted his justice that 'all likewise perish."
But that's not God's decree according to the Calvinists. God's decree is that some would perish, BEFORE he even decreed the fall. The fall was decreed as the means to the perishing, so that God would be justified in damning billions to hell for His glory.

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,Secretly declare that BILLIONS will go to hell (because he either chose them (reprobated) to go, or passed over them while he was decreeing unconditional election - the difference is moot really), and that the reason they go to hell is for his Sovereign PLEASURE and GLORY?

Brother Luke, again, as I pointed out, he did not choose the billions to perish, we were all doomed in the first place. Rather he elected those to be saved because,
And as I pointed out, the common view of God's decree taken by all Calvinist superstars (Washer, Piper etc) is that God elected those to be saved BEFORE he even decreed the fall. So in actuality, he looked upon all men as innocent, declared who he would saved, reprobated the others, and decreed the fall as the means of reprobation, and then decreed Christ as the way to get those that he chose to save back.

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Please show me the so called contradictions from the above scriptures.
There are no contradictions in the scriptures you quoted. The scriptures contradict YOUR theology, not each other.

Also:
It's really hard to reply when you make changes to a quote. You should quote small portions at a time.

God bless