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Old 07-07-2009, 06:33 PM
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Gord Gord is offline
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Burlington, Ontario
Posts: 171

:Brother Luke,
If you took the time to study this, you would know the answer, rather that formating your ideas and statements on the quotes of the hearsay of others who likewise did not take the time to search the scriptures for specific answers.

Originally Posted by Luke View Post

Let me ask you this. Since you believe "God elected those for his glory and that is His Grace.", why did he reject billions more, if he actually wants them to be saved? God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Eze 33:11), and yet, according to you, God intentionally reprobated or passively passed them by, depending on your lapsarian view, for his sovereign pleasure, when he could have elected them.

Eze*18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

The Bible says that all things were created for His pleasure Re*4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created., but Eze*33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways;

This does not look like intentional reprobation, rather it looks to me like keeping his promise of justice to all who sin, with as he points out no pleasure. Justice is not supposed to be fun.

So either God does take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, or he doesn't take pleasure in it.

The Bible says that all things were created for His pleasure (Rev 4:11), but God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Eze 33:11).

Now, the standard calvinist answer to my above question is either

i) The secret will of God cannot be known, who art thou O man that repliest against God...

Or, if you want to be more discussive & turn it around to be positive, it's usually

ii) God looked down upon man concluded all under sin and was not obliged to save any. The wonder of His grace is that He chose to save some!

But those don't answer the question at all, but bypass it. The question remains, why does a Sovereign God who emphatically states he

i) Takes no pleasure in the wicked
ii) Wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth
iii) Is not willing that any should perish
iv) Recieves glory from praise and obedience

A typical Arminian response to not knowing the scripture well enough, or, in your training, you have come to listen to what those around say rather that seek the truth for yourself. I don't adhere to either or your suppositions, rather the scripture tells us

1Ti*2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Lu*13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Ro*2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
2Pe*3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In other words, ever since Adam, all man will face the justice of God, DEATH. That is not God choosing some to die, he already granted his justice that 'all likewise perish."

,Secretly declare that BILLIONS will go to hell (because he either chose them (reprobated) to go, or passed over them while he was decreeing unconditional election - the difference is moot really), and that the reason they go to hell is for his Sovereign PLEASURE and GLORY?

Brother Luke, again, as I pointed out, he did not choose the billions to perish, we were all doomed in the first place. Rather he elected those to be saved because,
Eph*1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
You have a God who contradicts his own nature and very word.
Eph*1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

You have a God who contradicts his own nature and very word.
Please show me the so called contradictions from the above scriptures.