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Old 02-01-2009, 08:08 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462
Default Rashi on Psalm 12

Hi Folks,

This is brought over from the Isaiah 13:15 thread, where James Price and William Combs had attacked "joined unto them" as having no support in the "rabbinic traditions". And then we saw that Rashi, Ibn Ezra and Kimchi all supported "joined unto them" ! And that even in the alternative (mentioned by Kimchi as weak) the translation was not given as Price's modern version supposedly correct "captured" (which was unmentioned, off the radar).

Noting the positive reference to Rashi, the question was asked :

Quote:
Originally Posted by solabiblia
Steven: I notice that we share a respect for the commentary of RASHI. Have you looked at his exegesis of Psalm 12? If so, what do you think of it?
Hi sola. Also the King James Bible translators show a consistent respect for the Hebraics (especially the vocabulary and grammar of the three men above). Where those men tend to be weaker is Messianic interpretation, since on some verses a type of "circling the horses" had become more sophisticated in the rabbinics after the Talmud-Midrash period. (Even there you can find lots of good discoveries in the rabbinics.) Yet on general interpretation and word understanding and usage they are to be respected and considered. (Many of the more tedious attacks on specific words in the King James Bible, e.g. by Rick Norris, are defacto refuted by the rabbinic references that Norris studiously avoids finding and mentioning.) And as Hayim Sheynin pointed out, Rashi tends to be sensible and down-to-earth in interpretation.

In a general sense, these men knew ancient Hebrew on a level way beyond the modern lexicon scholars. Like the Christian Hebraists of the 16th and 17th century, they worked deeply with the ancient Hebrew and Aramaic texts daily, and their work was highly respected by the Christian Hebraists. They had a hands-on familiarity with the Hebrew Bible, the Targum, the Talmud and Midrash, and other writings including the earlier rabbinics. (Today's lexicon scholars are mostly oblivious to all this. And they especially do not like when clear explanations from these Hebrew giants have been translated to English, readable by the ploughman, and directly contradict their dubious assertions against the pure Bible !) And when Rashi, Ibn Ezra and Kimchi agree on the meaning of a word or phrase (Messianic passages being possible exceptions) you can have some confidence that their sense is true or at least worthy of very earnest consideration. And often this will be reflected in the King James Bible, against some nouveau-modernist translation, as in Isaiah 13:15 and Jeremiah 8:8 (a truly critical verse in Bible-apologetics). We run into these verses frequently (where the KJB and usually the Geneva and other Reformation sources agree with the historic Jewish understanding against modern translation corruptions). A nice study would be to catalog a dozen or so with explanations.

Now on Psalm 12 there is a split in the Hebraics, with Ibn Ezra taking the "words" position for Psalm 12:7. (This is a clear and strong refutation of the more belligerent accusations on this verse that the "words" understanding is some sort of KJB-defender invention. Such accusations are rather common-place, showing once again the deficient level of understanding of the anti-KJB crew.) The split in the rabbinics is one of the reasons that I tend to be not overly dogmatic against the "persons" view and do not rail at it harshly.

Remember this is translation, not text, the King James Bible text is pure and accurate for either interpretation. While the "us" translations, every common today, are most especially deficient. Another corruption in many modern versions. This is one of the oft-hidden aspects of the verse, one that John Hinton brought to light most clearly.

For awhile I tended to consider the possibility of an ambiguity, a dual application. However, simply reading the verse as a whole carefully:

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...89&postcount=8
Psalm 12 - contrast - God's word with lips of men


has make my conviction sure that the primary and clear meaning is the words of the LORD, and preservation of people "from this generation for ever" (a key phrase) would only apply to the "poor and "needy" in a secondary, midrashic sense, if at all.

Psalm 12:6-7
The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


Now Rashi gives an interesting interpretation on the two verses. He first writes very nicely about Psalm 12:6. (Psalm 12:7 in the Hebrew Bible, as they include the verse header as a verse.) The Mayer Gruber translation is clearer generally, so if I indicate nothing, that is what I am using. The major difference in the Judaica Press edition I will put as from JP. Where JP is clearer, then (Gr) can give Gruber.

The promises of the Lord are pure promises

They are so for He has the ability to fulfill them, while the promises of people are not (valid promises) for they (people) die, and they have not the ability to fulfill them.

pure

clear and fulfilled (JP: permanent) He does all that He promises; Note that He promised me (David) vindication and kingship. (JP: salvation and the throne).

silver refined (Gr - purged)

They are like refined silver that is exposed to the entire land. (JP)

Note that they (the promises of the Lord) is like purged silver, which is manifest to the whole earth. (Gr)

(JP)
exposed Heb. בעליל, an expression of revealing; in the language of the Mishna (Rosh Hashanah 21b, see Gemara): “whether it was plainly (בעליל) visible or whether it was not plainly (בעליל) visible, etc.” Others explain בעליל as an expression of elevation, and this is its explanation: silver refined with the best earth. (snip more explanations) ... Targum Jonathan, too, renders it as an expression of lordship. He says that His sayings are like silver, refined by the Lord of the earth, Who is God, for He refined and clarified them.

Clarified sevenfold.

This part is clearly excellent. Rashi is strongly emphasizing the purity of the words of God and the temporality of man's words and promises ("from this generation for ever" is a critical part of the next verse). The one omission I notice is that while Rashi talks about the "sayings" or "promises" of the Lord he does not specifically identify the Scripture as the eternal vessel and container for the words of God to man. One reason for this lack might be the confusions in rabbinics where extra-scriptural writings (e.g Talmud-Midrash and later even the rabbinics themselves) are given a very high status as of divine origin. Thus in Jewish writings there is a tendency to avoid simple statements about the full specialness and authority and inspiration of the Scripture alone.

This became a bit longer than expected, time is short (I prefer my posts to be carefully done) so I will continue the next verse on a second post.

Note, when quoting the Jewish sources, they are often not clear about the distinction between Lord and LORD, using 'Lord' for both. In this case I follow their usage of 'Lord' -- which in this verse is LORD == Jehovah.

Shalom,
Steven

Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-01-2009 at 08:21 AM.