[George]

Originally Posted by Connie

It's scripture, George. Your words above are judging what scripture says. Why all this concern about a fleshly observance, you ask? It's PAUL's "fleshly observance" if so, George. It is what PAUL, that is, GOD'S WORD, says. What he says is clearly about a PHYSICAL REQUIREMENT. Should I just decide that I can ignore the teachings not to dress elaborately (braid and decorate the hair etc), or dress modestly, that that's just too physical a thing to occupy myself with? Should it then not bother you if a man shows up in church with long hair or a hat on? Isn't that just a carnal preoccupation with physical stuff?

This isn't church, where a woman is required to be silent and listen. Paul didn't say I had to have nothing to say ever anywhere. There is no pastor over the proceedings here. This is a forum. I'm not setting myself up as an authority, I simply did a study last year about a part of scripture I had come to feel strongly about that it seems is neglected and misunderstood. Just as I believe you are misunderstanding it. If you won't consider it based on the facts I've assembled, maybe some of the male teachers at the links would be more persuasive. They're all men except Mary Kassian.

I'm only a woman but nobody else is saying this so I'm running it by people here and there to see if anyone will consider it. I've come to believe that there are many things that are contributing to the powerlessness of the churches these days, and they include the rejection of the headcovering which was practiced pretty universally in the churches until about the 60s. Yes, it sounds carnal, but it's there in the Word of God and after spending much time on it I don't see any other way to rightly understand it. (Even if you think it's preaching long hair, that's a carnal concern too by the way.) The use of the false Bible versions is another reason for the powerlessness. Pursuing that subject is what got me here.

That's OK, if I'm considered out of order here for having a strong opinion I can back up with evidence, I will desist.

Connie,

Your reply to my comments are instructive on why a woman should not be trying to instruct (teaching) men.

"It's scripture George". What kind of a lame answer is that? It doesn't say anything and it doesn't shed any light on the subject at hand. Again you say: "Your words above are judging what scripture says". I wasn't doing anything of the sort! You had 2 men that answered your question from the "scriptures" and you instantly went into a "pet" doctrine or belief of yours without even considering that either one of these men might have spent as much time studying the matter as you have (or maybe more).

I was trying to put the matter in perspective i.e. the importance of spiritual matters over against physical observances. [Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.]

I was trying to understand WHY you would ask this question, when you were all prepared to "instruct" us with your extensive studies. I simply pointed out what the scriptures say, nay command, about a woman teaching a man.

Let me be clear - if a woman comes to our church neither I nor my fellow elder-pastor have anything to say to her, as long as she conducts herself as befitting a Christian woman and dresses modestly. The same goes for any man that may come to our services. We don't get in their face about long hair, or beards, or manner of dress as long as they too conduct themselves as is befitting a Christian man and dresses modestly. (in Hawaii we don't have a "strict" dress code - people are not "required to "dress-up" to come to church).

As to your reply: "This isn't church, where a woman is required to be silent and listen." I don't see anywhere in 1 or 2 Timothy, or Titus for that matter, where these instructions and commandments about women - which were given to the men that were Paul's helpers, were limited to a Christian's conduct in church only - where is that? On the other hand, when Paul is instructing the church at Corinth, he clearly is talking about a woman's conduct in church. 1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Have you always "observed" this commandment from the Apostle Paul? Do most women in the Western world observe this commandment when in church? - I trow not! Am I going to go on a witch hunt and either condemn them or even try to convince them that they are sinning because they are not following the clear commandment of the Apostle Paul?

For you to "feel strongly" about this matter is one thing - but we Christians are not to go on our "feelings", we are to: 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. "Feelings" have nothing to do with the Truth!

In your posts you site: Tertullian; Mary Kassian; Marlowe; Brian Schwertley; Watchman Nee; Tom Shank; Amy Carmichael; and David Bercot as "authorities" (You even appeal to the "Greek"). In addition you make the assumption (based on the "authorities"?) that: "Historically Paul was understood by all the churches to require a cloth headcovering, which is demonstrated by the fact that women in the Christianized West covered their heads not only in church but at all times up until very recently, which made it specifically the custom of Christendom." When you talk abot "Christendom" or the "Christianized West" - are you referring to the Roman Catholic church? (We should be paying attention to the Catholic Church's practices and or observances? Are you serious?)

Thomas Schreiner and Spiros Zodhiates mean nothing to me. I don't follow men (or women for that matter). I look to God's words in the "scriptures of truth" for all matters of doctrine and faith. And the scriptures simply say: 1Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. What part of this verse don't you understand? Her hair is her covering! You and all of your "authorities" can believe or "feel" whatever you want - but please don't give me: "I've come to believe that there are many things that are contributing to the powerlessness of the churches these days, and they include the rejection of the headcovering which was practiced pretty universally in the churches until about the 60s."

I got saved in 1958 and attended Plymouth Brethren, brethren, Independent Bible, Pentecostal, and Baptist churches in the time frame that you mention. None of the women in those churches wore "coverings" over their heads, with the exception of the Plymouth Brethren & brethren churches. (Some of us are old enough {ancient?} to know what took place in the distant past). Of course the Roman Catholic church has practised this for centuries.

Finally I would like to make a comparison between that which is essential (the spiritual) and that which is not essential (physical). There are 950 occurences of the word heart or hearts in 880 verses in our Bible. All of those verses refer to a heart (spiritual - not physical) with the exception of only 12-13 verses which refer to the physical heart; the heart of Egypt; the heart of the sea; the heart of the Earth, etc. WHY? Why are you hung-up on a head covering (approximately 16 verses), when there are many more spiritual matters in the scriptures that you should have a concern about?

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

All of mankind (Men & Women) has a heart problem (even Christians - even me!)

Proverbs 5:12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof;
Proverbs 8:5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Proverbs 14:33 Wisdom resteth in the heart of him that hath understanding: but that which is in the midst of fools is made known.
Proverbs 18:15 The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge.
Proverbs 23:12 Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.

Please notice: The Lord is talking about the heart of man (and women) not the mind!
Modern day Christianity is full of Sophists (Humanists - Psychiatry & Psychology) - people who have "knowledge"; who are always seeking solutions and answers with the mind only; but who have neglected the matters of the heart.

Real Bible knowledge, discernment, understanding, and wisdom comes from God - not man. We are to: "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11 NOTICE: David didn't say he hid God's word in his mind!

Proverbs 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.