[Gord]

Originally Posted by Forrest

Greetings Gord. I'm wondering this. If the free will of man has nothing to do with believing...because you said "God takes it completely out of the hands of MAN. He made that choice for us." How is it that we now have a free will to obey or disobey? How is it that before salvation God imposed His will on us who are now saved but does not impose His will now that I am? by your theology.

1. The belief that God predestined people for salvation before the beginning of time. God’s election is not conditioned by anything in man, good or evil, foreseen or present, but upon God’s sovereign choice.

Romans 3:10-18 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

Joh*6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh*6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Joh*6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

2. The Bible clearly teaches that election is not conditioned on man.

Joh*15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Romans 9:10-13 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

3. The words “predestine,” “choose,” “appoint,” and “foreknow” are
all in the active voice, which speaks of the initiative of the actor
behind the action (God). One would have to have a preconceived
bias against the doctrine of election in order to interpret these
words in a conditional sense.

4. Romans 9:8–29 clearly and contextually teach unconditional
election of individuals.

Job 42:1-6 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

5. Salvation is by grace alone and for God’s glory alone. If people are elect based on their own choice, then merit is gained through the work of the individual (i.e., their faith).

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

6. If all people of all time have “equal opportunity” to come to the
Lord through God’s prevenient grace and their own free will, why
is it that salvation is not more evenly dispersed?

In other words God elected those for his glory and that is His Grace.

This is so clear to me, I hope this explains why I think and see this.