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Old 07-11-2009, 02:26 PM
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Pastor Steve's
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The Judges 14:18 passage (which I realize is a sidelight to the main event) was interesting. I was raised in an independent, fundamental Baptist church, Christian school, etc. I have NEVER heard that this refered to "marital relations." I have always heard it as Custer put it. They used her against Samson to get information. The text is clear. If the 30 of them had raped her, chances are she would be dead...like the woman in Judges 19, which really showed the depths of depravity in Israel. The three commentaries somebody provided didn't deal with the context. It certainly shows how sheltered I have been in my life, but it doesn't prove that the passage MUST be interpretted to mean that they raped her, or abused her. The context is clear - they used her to get information to put Samson in a bad position, and he knew it.
greenbear's
Quote:
Whether any one had sex with any one or not would any one of these thirty men keep the answer to the riddle to himself and not tell the others?
Pastor Steve's
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Schwenke View Post
UH, you brought up the sex act, and defended it, and insisted that this was the sense of the passage...not sure where you are going with this...
Here's where I'm going with it, Pastor Steve:

Pastor Steve's
Quote:
The Judges 14:18 passage (which I realize is a sidelight to the main event) was interesting.
I was raised in an independent, fundamental Baptist church, Christian school, etc. I have NEVER heard that this refered to "marital relations." I have always heard it as Custer put it.
What does whether or not you've ever heard this before have to with the price of tea in China?

Who ever said it was referring to "marital relations"? Marital relations are between a husband and wife.

Let me try to clearly articulate what I am saying apart from any twisting and wresting and illogical arguments that have been used against my words.


This is my understanding of the passage:

Samson makes a bet with his companions that they cannot find out his riddle.


Jg*14:12 And Samson said unto them, I will now put forth a riddle unto you: if ye can certainly declare it me within the seven days of the feast, and find it out, then I will give you thirty sheets and thirty change of garments:
Jg*14:13 But if ye cannot declare it me, then shall ye give me thirty sheets and thirty change of garments. And they said unto him, Put forth thy riddle, that we may hear it.

Samson tells them his riddle:

Judges 14:14 And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness.

The thirty young men are unable to solve Samson's riddle.

And they could not in three days expound the riddle.

They determine to resort to a different strategy as they realized they could not solve the riddle using their brains. So they approach Samson's wife. They threaten to burn her and and her family if she does not find the answer to the riddle from her husband and declare it's meaning to them. They justify themselves by accusing her and her family of setting a snare for their own counrtymen in order to take their possessions. In reality, it was of their own free will that they entered into the bet with Samson. They are what are called "sore losers" and "cheaters" and "false accusers".


Judges 14:15 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that they said unto Samson's wife, Entice thy husband, that he may declare unto us the riddle, lest we burn thee and thy father's house with fire: have ye called us to take that we have? is it not so?

Samson's wife cries and manipulates her husbands emotions for seven days until he can't take it any more and he breaks down and tells her. She tells the riddle to the the young men.

Judges 14:16 And Samson's wife wept before him, and said, Thou dost but hate me, and lovest me not: thou hast put forth a riddle unto the children of my people, and hast not told it me. And he said unto her, Behold, I have not told it my father nor my mother, and shall I tell it thee?
Judges 14:17 And she wept before him the seven days, while their feast lasted: and it came to pass on the seventh day, that he told her, because she lay sore upon him: and she told the riddle to the children of her people.

Samson's companions go to Samson before sunset of the seventh day and answer his riddle.

Judges 14:18 And the men of the city said unto him on the seventh day before the sun went down, What is sweeter than honey? and what is stronger than a lion?

Sampson answers them with an accusation. Hopefully, we can all agree that by "my heifer" he is referring to his wife. He is aware that she is the only one who he told his riddle to and his companions are actually countrymen of his new wife so he may suspect she has mixed loyalties. Samson was not aware of the threats made to his wife and her father's house. She should have told him about the threats rather than betray him, in my opinion, but she was a gentile and probably did not trust in the God of Israel to deliver her and her families' lives by her husband's hand.

I believe since Samson knew it was his wife that betrayed him, and did not know about the threats that were made to her, and that she had betrayed him in favor of this group of young men that were her countrymen, my view is that he suspected she was sexually intimate with one of the party. Without knowing that these men had threatened her I think he would question if her loyalty and love were to one of the other men in the party instead of to him. Samson wasn't privy to the narrative as we are as we read the passage. It does appear to me that she was being falsely accused by Samson if I interpret his accusation correctly. You see, the question is not whether she had sex with any of the young men but rather did Sampson believe that she had at the moment he spoke those words.


And he said unto them, If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle.

I can have full respect for someone elses differing view of what Samson meant by "plowed with my heifer". What I have a problem with is when someone adds to and takes away from what I have written changing the meaning of my words and when someone falsely accuses me. Pam's, and now your, assertion that I have argued that all thirty men raped her to get her to tell them the the answer is just one example of why I have no desire to "discuss" anything with Pam. Her false accusation that I have a filthy mind is another:

Quote:
custer post # 36

I want to make it perfectly clear that I had never even heard of ANYONE believing a "sex act" was alluded to in Judges 14...and, frankly, I think it takes a dirty mind to have read that into the passage! These 30 men in the passage did not sweet-talk and sleep with this woman - they threatened to KILL her, for crying out loud! Plus, as my 16-year-old son pointed out after hearing all this garbage, we're talking about ONE woman, THIRTY men, and SEVEN days...what in the world?????? FILTH!!!
Also, in verse one of chapter 15, Samson decides he wants to "go in to" his wife...does anybody actually think he would WANT her if he thought she had been with those other men??? (Yes, he had a harlot in 16:1, but that's different than choosing a wife! Right, men?)
Greenbear's "Samson's metaphor for the sex act" was a clever tool of the devil to plant that nasty thought in the mind of everyone reading this thread EVERY TIME we read Judges 14 from now on!
Because you, Pastor Steve, have never heard this interpretation from your Baptist children's Sunday school on through whatever formal education you have had makes no difference to me. I'm not really into the 'consensus" method of interpreting the scriptures, anyway.

I do seem to have some support for my view on Samson's metaphor in some older commentaries and it seems in ancient times, though.

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Judges 14:18

If ye had not ploughed with my heifer - If my wife had not been unfaithful to my bed, she would not have been unfaithful to my secret; and, you being her paramours, your interest was more precious to her than that of her husband. She has betrayed me through her attachment to you. Calmet has properly remarked, in quoting the Septuagint, that to plough with one's heifer, or to plough in another man's ground, are delicate turns of expression used both by the Greeks and Latins, as well as the Hebrews, to point out a wife's infidelities...

In this sense Samson's words were understood by the Septuagint, by the Syriac, and by Rabbi Levi. See Bochart, Hierozoic. p. 1, lib. ii., cap. 41, col. 406. The metaphor was a common one, and we need seek for no other interpretation of the words of Samson.

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Judges 14:18

and he said unto them, if ye had not ploughed with my heifer; meaning his wife, whom he compares to an heifer, young, wanton, and unaccustomed to the yoke3; and by "ploughing" with her, he alludes to such creatures being employed therein, making use of her to get the secret out of him, and then plying her closely to obtain it from her; and this diligent application and search of theirs, by this means to inform themselves, was like ploughing up ground; they got a discovery of that which before lay hid, and without which they could never have had the knowledge of, as he adds:

ye had not found out my riddle; the explanation of it. Ben Gersome and Abarbinel interpret ploughing of committing adultery with her; in which sense the phrase is used by Greek and Latin writers4; but the first sense is best, for it is not said, "ploughed my heifer", but with her.


Matthew Poole's Commentary on the Holy Bible
Judges 14:18
Ver. 18. If you had not employed my wife to find it out, as men plough up the ground with a heifer, thereby discovering its hidden parts: he calls her
heifer, either because he now suspected her wantonness and too much familiarity with that friend which she afterwards married
; or because she was joined with him in the same yoke; or rather, because they used such in ploughing.



I'll repeat my reasons for my understanding that Samson's words were an accusation that his secret was found out by one of the men having an adulterous affair with his wife (now that my understanding of the context of this passage should be clear) by examining Samson's accusation:

And he said unto them, If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle.

1) Literally plowing the ground with an ox to reveal the hidden parts of the ground.
2) Figuratively employing methods of uncovering Samson's secret from his wife. The idea of revealing secret things or hidden parts does have the feel of sexual immorality.
3) Although given in language rather than an image, this analogy is also addressed to the eye and can be pictured by the imagination. The physical form of a plowman behind the plow and...well, hopefully we all get the idea.
4) What does a plowman do after plowing the ground? HE SCATTERS SEED.

It's just so obvious to me that plowing has been a metaphor for sex in every "primitive" agrarian society in history. It even is in ours.




You are free to take my interpretation or leave it but please do not join with Pam in twisting, wresting, changing meaning, adding on, and taking away from my words, and using ridiculously absurd illogical arguments. You are free to pick apart the whole thread if you like and try to find any of my words to use against me. I am not a skilled debater and I've never encountered these types of sophist arguments before that twist your brain inside out and leave you wondering what just hit you. If you care to continue to discuss the topic on this thread feel free but I would appreciate it if you would refrain from misstating my argument.

Last edited by greenbear; 07-11-2009 at 02:44 PM.