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Old 05-01-2009, 02:06 PM
CKG CKG is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Warner Robins, Georgia
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Originally Posted by boaz212 View Post
I had a discussion with some friends who believe in predestination taught by John Calvin. One of their strongest argument is based on John 6.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Their emphasis is on the drawing of the Father, without which no one can come to Christ to be saved. Therefore, their conclusion is that the Father chooses whom He would save and give them to His Son so they can believe on Him. And no man can come and believe on Christ if the Father chooses not to save him by drawing him to His Son.
I don't believe Calvin's understanding of predestination because the scriptures do teach the contrary. So my questions are: on what basis does the Father "draw" and "give" sinners to Christ so they will get saved? And what do sinners need to do to either not get "drawn" or get "drawn" by the Father unto salvation?

So far, I think this verse below may explain part of the questions. Those who will "hear" and "learn" from the Father by their own choice will be "drawn" and those refuse will not be. Does it make sense so far? Please feel free to share your insights and understanding with me. Thanks!!

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
There was always a Jewish remnant that was faithful to God. There was that faithful few (Zacharias, Elisabeth, Simeon, Anna, John the Baptist, the disciples…etc) who were looking for the coming Messiah and these were the ones that the Father gave to Jesus. Someone once asked what happened to a Jew who died before the cross since the new birth and sealing of the Holy Spirit was not yet occurring. Jesus made it plain what would happen; “all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day”, the all referring to those faithful Jews waiting for the Messiah and then believing Jesus was he.


THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (Luke 1:5)

And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. (Luke 2:25)

And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. (Luke 2:36-37)

And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. (John 1:19-23)

One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. (John 1:40-41)