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Old 06-02-2009, 12:15 PM
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tonybones2112 tonybones2112 is offline
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Originally Posted by Greektim View Post
Ok...let me back up...and don't forget I am a Dispensationalist (normative/classical/traditional; I call myself a strict/refined Dispensationalist b/c of my views of the Kingdom of God, the New Covenant, & Spirit indwelling which are a bit different than the Ryrie, Walvoord, Pentecost Dispensationalism. But that is for another time...):

You see 2 churches, or possibly 3 (OT Israe? & a Messianic Petrine or are they the same???). No doubt the KJV speaks of a "church" in the OT from Acts 7. I only see 1 Church beginning at Pentecost. I see an ekklesia (congregation or assembly) in Acts 7 just as you see ekklesia (assembly) in Acts 19. But...potato potahtoe...

My first question is, would you say that the Church (Pauline in your case) is a mystery (mystery being that which was not revealed in the past, etc...)? If yes, could you provide the Scripture that directly says the church is a mystery? If not, well then you get the idea...

Last thing, Jesus uses a future tense in Matt. 16:18 "I will build My Church." Does that not affect the way you interpret it? Are we not part of Jesus' Church? How can you tell which ekklesia He is referring to?

I know I was accused of asking to many questions, but I hope that doesn't bother you Tony. I want to get a feel for things before I go right off and stick my foot in my mouth. I have big feet so that would not be a good thing.
You don't ask too many questions, as far as I am concerned Tim. I enjoy talking with you, so no problem. I don't see any guile in you, you have differing opinions maybe with many on this forum, I'm sure you and I differ. No problem. See brother, I was once an Inquisitioner. I expected every Christian to have the belief I did because I thought my way was encoded in all Christian's DNA. It was when I became involved in the street ministry I relearned an old lesson: I was once Church Of Christ, as hell-damning a heresy as any cult you want to name. My lesson was, don't beat the Pentecostal for being Pentecostal, I was wrong once too. I'm not saying you are wrong on anything, I'm saying I am personally a little more long-suffering than I once was and can can see another's perspective. Sometimes we can't when the heresy is blatant, as with Tandi, and sometimes you just get people with an Inquisitioner's attitude, as with this Oneway person. Also, I owe you a response on the discussion in another thread on the NKJV. I throw things into bold type, italics, and underline for emphasis and that makes me appear cut, dried, and pedantic. It's hard to convey emotions through computer text. Lastly, the last ten years have been to me like Job's Time on the ground. I could have packed and left my mother to fend for herself, I chose to care for her, at the end she and I both lost everything we owned. That time of financial exile is coming to an end and I have a "tour" planned to meet friends I have met on the 'net, I'll be over your way and we'll meet face to face someday soon.

Brother, the Scripture you ask for regarding this church today being unprophesied and a "mystery" was quoted in my message: Ephesians 3. If you notice from his writings, Paul leaves no mystery undefined. He says, okay folks, here is a mystery, and then he says what it is.

The church in the wilderness, the first ecclesia mentioned by Stephen, is the nation of Israel. this nation apostatized as the OT shows, and it was prophesied that God would have to call a New Israel from the Old. It was stated the Levites, along with the other people of the nation, also went into idolatry with them. This is why the Levitical washing was called a baptism(washing) of "repentance". The priesthood needed cleansing just as much as the rest of the nation. To those who responded to John the Baptist and to those who refused, John stated, I come baptizing with water and all his listeners knew just what he meant: Exodus 29, 40, Lev 8 washings as consecration. He stated then to the belivers, He who comes after me will baptize you in the Holy Ghost,(the sanctification of the "oil") and with fire(those who rejected the gospel of the kingdom of heaven, thrown into hell).

I agree with you on Matt. 16: Christ prophesied the Messianic church, it was fulfilled in Acts 2, and in Acts 2:47 the Scriptures state God added to the "church" as many as accepted the message and obeyed the ordinance of Levitical washing and then they received the sanctification of the gift of the Holy Ghost. You have a term you call "progressive dispensationalism", I am teaching here progressive revelation. Paul gives the number of believers in this Messianic church in 1 Cor. 15 as being over 511 on the day of Pentecost, this church eventually grew and was numbered at the time of the surrender of the 5 "great commissions" given to the 12 by the risen Christ to Paul and Barnabas at being 7000. I believe this because I believe the Scriptures are precise down to the last atom.

1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Ro 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

The Messianic church in Paul's time was the "little flock", the "remnant". When national Israel fell(Rom. 11) Paul was called and was given the revelation that the third church that you and I are in came to be by Israel's fall rather than exaltation. At no time in history were Jews and Gentiles together in one Body. Until Paul receives the revelation from Christ. Paul says we are "graffed" into something. National Israel that fell?

No, we are grafted into the Messianic church to maintain the One-Body relationship to Christ. The church you and I are in was grafted into this Believing Remnant of Peter, James, and John at Acts 15, as Paul describes, the very instant we are grafted is when they gave Paul and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship.

The question you may have at this time is why then did not the Messianic church then follow Paul?

Ro 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man‘s foundation:

Ac 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

I "rightly divide Paul": Pre-Acts 15, But Now, today, and his work laying the foundation, with the 12, for the Tribulation church, which is nothing more than the Messianic church. The program was interrupted by the mystery Body of Eph. 3, we are a parenthetical addition not mentioned in any prophecy.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in [U]all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.[/U]

Peter did not say he didn't understand Paul's letters or commission otherwise he would not have given him the right hand of fellowship: He said there were things the unlearned and unstable would wrest, as the Church Of Christ, the Catholics, and other do.

3 in particular I can name for you wrest Paul to put us back under the Law: Tandi, Herbert Armstrong's followers, and Ellen White of the SDAs.

Larkin and Scofield divided the word into 7 dispensations: Paul divides it into 3 in Eph. 2:

Time Past- Genesis-Acts 28: The fathers, nation of Israel, Messiah and Messianic Church(water baptism and the signs of the apostles cease at Acts 28. Bullinger taught the Biody began at Acts 28, the sign gifts ran out at Acts 28).
But Now- The mystery Body of Jew and Gentiles. For simplicity's sake I call this administration(dispensation) ACTS CHAPTER 29 that you and I are in. Romans-Philemon.
Ages To Come- Hebrews-Revelation. The Messianic-Apostolic-Tribulation church. The time covered is Tribulation, Millennium, Eternity.

To understand Pauline Dispensationalism you need to know the difference between:

Law and Grace
Peter and Paul
Israel(the Bride) and the Church of today under Paul(the Body of The Groom)
Kings and Priests
Moses and Jesus Christ

All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, not all that doctrine is applicable to you and me. Paul's Scriptures can be and are rightly divided into:

Doctrine- Romans
Reproof- I & II Corinthians
Correction- Galatians-Colossians
Instruction In Righteousness- I Thess.-Philemon

Tim, if you can digest all this, this above is why I do not practice or teach OT ordinances given to national Israel and the Messianic/Apostolic Israel of:

Water baptism
Tongues, signs, wonders, healings, resurrections of the dead
The Lord's Supper

I do not practice the 5 commissions given to the 12, but the one commission given to Paul: I am an ambassador for Christ and minister of the reconciliation. My gospel is salvation by grace through faith apart from the works of the Law in Christ crucified for the sins of the whole world. Any other gospel preached than this one is accursed along with the people preaching it.

Tim, this is what I have taught in the forum, I taught it to Tandi, I have given parts of it in other threads. I'm not "pushing" anything as brother George mentioned in the water baptism thread, I am merely being consistent, do not change, and have not nor ever will deviate from it. I am not double minded as many cultists are, I do not change my position to suit whoever I am speaking to at the moment. I have never quoted Stam, Bullinger, Darby, Baker, or any of the Plymouth Brethren but given my position from the Scriptures. This is why Pauline Grace Dispensationalists are called heretics, false teachers, "Bullingerites" and divisive church splitters. It's my position in the water baptism thread and I'm still waiting for someone to refute it. If churches won;t allow me fellowship with them, if it gets me thrown out of internet forums as it has several, then just take God's free Grace off the shelf, I preach it to Jews and Gentiles by myself.

Not by guile, stealth, deception,
Nor by anything seen or felt
Just give me God's free Grace
And nothing else

Grace and peace brother