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Old 07-01-2009, 01:59 PM
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George George is offline
 
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Default Re: "Dispensational Truth and Error"

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbear View Post
George,

"I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge of the scriptures. As I've made clear on various posts, I have never really attended a church and have just gotten back into the scriptures recently after a decade of barely being in them at all. It would be surprising if I was right on everything. I've written what I believe from what I've read and understood. If you think I'm wrong on anything I would be happy to see you respond if you wanted to. I'm just so tired of hearing brother's arguments that aren't even arguments from scripture rightly divided."

Aloha sister Jennifer,

You are doing JUST FINE (without any "guidance" from me). Your husband (johnlf) should be proud. The only thing that I will I recommend is that you continue to follow his headship.

I believe, that in your heart, you sincerely want to know the truth - and that's what counts (NOT how much "knowledge" we have!). It''s the HEART - it's always "where the heart is" that really and truly matters. [Proverbs 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.]

I have read most of your Posts and am in agreement with most of what you have said. There are always going to be some differences between genuine Bible believers, but so far I haven't read anything that you have written that is worth "fightin over" (at least not on my part).

I also agree with your assessment of Harry Ironside in your Post #50:
Quote:
Winman,
"Thanks for your concern in recommending Ironside's article. I read chapter 7, then 1-3. Unfortunately, I feel it's a waste of my time to continue so I won't. In my opinion, Ironside resorts to character assassination, name-calling, fear-mongering, straw-man arguments, faulty reasoning, wrong interpretation of scriptures and he doesn't seem very strong in eschatology, either. Attempting to influence opinion by labeling those who disagree as a heretic by the "orthodox" consensus is the oldest trick in the book. I think the correct perspective is that the refomation didn't go very far toward literal interpretation of all scripture unless it is apparent from the text that it should be read otherwise. Men like Ironside were greatly used of God but they didn't go far enough in literal interpretation. It is impossible to literally interpret the scriptures without a dispensational framework. If people want to label me as something or other because I may agree on some points, oh well."
Ironside, like so many commentators of his day, would not hesitate to "CORRECT" the King James Bible, wherever it ran afoul of his "personal beliefs". WHY do so many people on the Forum keep recommending other men? - other men's books, tapes, cd's, video's, articles, etc., etc., instead of encouraging people to "search the Scriptures"?

I also agree with your "assessment" (your Post #18) of "Pastor" Lee Spencer's essay on Dispensationalism
Quote:
"His argument about dividing the body of Christ, starving ego, recognition as a teacher, one-upmanship doesn't hold water for me. That is the argument of the status quo. It has no bearing on the truth; it's irrelevant."
His points are mostly the "parroting" & "regurgitation" of numerous "commentators" who came before him - and most of whom did a much better job of defending their beliefs than he has done. But the most damaging part of his article is where he CHANGES the Holy words of God in order to prove his point! {Whenever a man does this to my Bible I write him off as just one more proud, vain, and egotistical man who believes that he has the "right" to "CORRECT" God's Holy word whenever he "DISAGREES" with it; and who "THINKS" he knows better than God!}

I find it interesting that Winman posts another man's article (on Dispensationalism), rather than posting his own words. and upon reading "Pastor" Lee Spencer's essay, it becomes crystal clear that Winman not only let's other people "speak" for him, but they also do his "thinking" for him also! {Check my Link: http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...4&postcount=49 to see where "Pastor" Lee Spencer runs to "THE UNHAMPERED HEBREW TEXT" (his "words" - NOT mine!) and ADDS to the Holy Bible and CHANGES God's Holy word to prove a "theological point"!} Oh well - WHAT'S NEW? Winman does it all the time! And Winman "recommends" this man?

It never cease to amaze me how enthusiastic people can get over the "words" of mere men, but show so little love and devotion for the Holy "words" of God!

I guess for today's Christians (steeped in Humanism) "A little leaven" doesn't really "leaven the whole lump"! [Galatians 5:9] WHY does a child of God "NEED" to "sift" through a garbage dump (leaven = corruption) in order to find some gold or silver - when we have the GOLD MINE at our finger tips? WHY does a genuine Bible believer "NEED" to check out these oh so wise Bible correcting commentators for precious "gems", when we have the DIAMOND MINE sitting at home on a coffee table? Hmmm?

Let's take a look at Harry Ironside's quotes (Chapter 7) and see where he would place me on his neat little "Dispensational Scale".

Harry Ironsides’ quotes:
Ironsides’
Quote:
Briefly, then, what are the outstanding tenets of Bullingerism and its kindred systems? For one needs to remember that a number are teaching these ultra-dispensational things who declare that they are not familiar with the writings of Dr. Bullinger, and repudiate with indignation the name of "Bullingerism." There are perhaps six outstanding positions taken by these teachers:

First, inasmuch as our Lord Jesus was "a minister of the circumcision to confirm the promises made to the fathers," it is insisted that the four Gospels are entirely Jewish and have no real message for the Church, the Body of Christ. All might not put it quite as boldly as this, but certainly their disciples go to the limit in repudiating the authority of the Gospels.
I do not agree with “Bullingerism” on this first point. As a Bible believer I do not “consign” the Four Gospels as being only for the Jews (“entirely Jewish) without any “real message for the church”; but what I try to do is obey God’s commandment concerning the study of His word: [2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.] That means I do NOT “divide” the “BOOKS” of the Bible as being either for the Jews or for the church. I am told to rightly divide the “WORDS” – NOT the “BOOKS”!

The Bible clearly says:


2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


The Lord Jesus Christ emphatically stated:

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And Paul reaffirmed that statement:

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

So, although most of the Four Gospels are about The Lord Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”; any part of the Four Gospels that is not contrary to Paul’s teaching for the churches can be applied to a Christian, and all Four Gospels are there for “our learning” [Romans 15:4] – however we must be extremely careful NOT to “apply” those “words" which are directed specifically to the Jews (at the time of Christ) to the church or to a Christian .
{It’s called: “rightly dividing the word of truth.”}

Ironsides’
Quote:
Secondly, it is maintained that the book of Acts covers a transition period between the dispensation of the law and the dispensation of the mystery; that is, that in the book of Acts we do not have the Church, the Body of Christ, but that the word "ekklesia" (church, or assembly), as used in that book, refers to a different Church altogether to that of Paul's prison epistles. This earlier Church is simply an aspect of the kingdom and is not the same as the Body of Christ!
I do not agree with “Bullingerism” on this second point. I believe that the “church” started soon after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ; and that it was present at Pentecost (something can “exist” without anyone being aware of it). I believe that the early church consisted of entirely Jews (and Jewish Proselytes) and that the “message” that was being preached at that time {Between Acts 2 through Acts 7} was NOT “the Gospel of the Grace of God” (i.e. Paul’s “Gospel”), but a continuation of “the gospel of the kingdom” – with a special emphasis on the nation of Israel REPENTING of killing their Messiah & King.

I believe that upon the final REJECTION (by the nation of Israel’s leaders) of the Holy Spirit (living in the Lord’s disciples) and His “message” to Israel (i.e. with the stoning of Stephen) that Lord began to turn to the Gentiles - beginning in Samaria and then with the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts Chapter 8; the conversion of Saul (later called Paul - the Apostle to the Gentiles) in Acts Chapter 9; and with the conversion of Cornelius and his household in Acts Chapter 10.

I believe that the “center” of “Christianity” SHIFTED from Jerusalem to Antioch during the ministry of the Apostle Paul, due to the fact that the Jews in Jerusalem and throughout the Mediterranean area hardened their hearts to the “Gospel”, while the Gentiles gladly received it. [Acts 28:23-28]

I do NOT “divide” Paul into “Early Paul”; “Mid Paul”; and “Late Paul”, simply because I am supposed to be “rightly dividing the word of truth” – NOT rightly dividing Paul.

Ironsides’
Quote:
Third, it is contended that Paul did not receive his special revelation of the mystery of the Body until his imprisonment in Rome, and that his prison epistles alone reveal this truth and are, strictly speaking, the only portion of the Holy Scriptures given to members of the Body. All of the other epistles of Paul, save those written during his imprisonment and the general epistles, are relegated to the earlier dispensation of the book of Acts, and have no permanent value for us, but were for the instruction of the so-called Jewish church of that time.
I do not agree with “Bullingerism” on this third point. I believe that Paul received most of the “revelation” that he received directly from the Lord Jesus Christ early on (in Damascus and in Arabia). [Galatians 1: 10-18 (especially verses 15 - 18); Galatians 2:1-2;Ephesians 3:1-7 (especially verses 2 & 3)]

Ironsides’
Quote:
Fourth, the entire book of Revelation has to do with the coming age and has no reference to the Church today. Even the letters to the seven churches in Asia, which are distinctly said to be "the things which are," are, according to this system, to be considered as "the things which are not," and will not be until the Church, the Body of Christ, is removed from this world. Then, it is contended, these seven churches will appear on the earth as Jewish churches in the Great Tribulation.
Since futureprophecy” entails so much “speculation”, “surmising”, “conjecture”, and “supposition” on the part of the reader - this is an area that I have not studied in depth, and so I cannot speak directly to it - except to say that most “Dispensationalists” that I know (or have read) basically “parrot” each other (with a few “minor” differences). However, there are a couple of verses in the Book of Revelation that have “PUZZLED” me for well over 20 years:

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit
on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Most commentators interpretthe Lord’s day” as being “Sunday” (the first day of the week), but I do not believe that that is the correct interpretation. Sunday is never referred to as “the Lord’s day” in the Bible (No, not once); but there are plenty of references to “the day of the Lord” in the Bible:

Isaiah 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
Isaiah 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Jeremiah 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
Ezekiel 13:5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
Ezekiel 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joel 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Amos 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Obadiah 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
Zephaniah 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
Zephaniah 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

John states that he “was IN the Spirit ON The Lord’s Day”. IF “the Lord’s day” = “the day of the Lord”, then everything that “follows” Revelation
1:10 takes place IN (or during) “the day of the Lord”, and cannot be applied to the church age at all. I have never done the study, so I cannot be sure of exactly where, when, or how all of these things are rightly divided (and so I can make no determination as to – what the truth of this matter is) – except for this one observation: Revelation 1:1 is talking about “things which must shortly come to pass” - 1,900 plus years seems like a long time for “things which must shortly come to pass”!

Ironsides’
Quote:
Fifth, the Body of Christ is altogether a different company, according to these teachers, from the Bride of the Lamb, the latter being supposed to be Jewish.
Since 1968 I have believed that the body of the Lord Jesus Christ is the Bride of the Lamb. To be honest, this is another issue which I have not delved into in depth, and I know some of the brethren on the Forum believe otherwise. I only have so much time to study (and “much study is a weariness of the flesh”) and again, since this issue has to do with the future (“prophecy”) and involves some “speculation” and “supposition” on my part – it has not been very high on my list of “priorities” when it comes to the study of spiritual issues. {I try to concentrate on those things that the Apostle Paul concentrated on – “sound doctrine” and Scriptural "Christian conduct”.}

Ironsides’
Quote:
Sixth, the Christian ordinances, having been given before Paul is supposed to have received his revelation of the mystery in prison, have no real connection with the present economy, and therefore, are relegated to the past, and may again have a place in the future Great Tribulation.”
I do not agree with “Bullingerism” on this sixth point. Although brother Tonybones is like Apollos (“mighty in the Scriptures”), he has not persuaded me that water baptism was done away with by the end of Paul’s ministry. Absent a clear prohibition (by Paul) in the Scriptures against water baptism, I will continue to believe it to be one of two ordinances (the Lord’s Supper being the second) for the New Testament church. {Just because there have been vile and atrocious ABUSES of these ordinances, doesn’t necessarily mean that they are unscriptural.}

Now I wonder where Harry Ironside would place me on his Dispensational "Scale"? Would I be considered HALF a "Hyper-Dispensationalist"? Or possibly MOSTLY a "Moderate Dispensationalist"? As for me - I'm really not worried about being labeled by those Christians who seek to HARMONIZE God's words rather than DIVIDE them. You will notice that the moment any of them start to lose a discussion that they will revert to personal attacks rather than stick with the issue being discussed.

In nearly fifty one years of being a Christian there is one thing that I have learned in dealing with the "brethren", (sadly it took me far too long to learn) that "Christians" are going to "DISAPPOINT" you - get used to it, and whatever you do, don't get so offended by them that you "backslide" (like I did on at least three occasions in my Christian life). Do what brother Forrest Wychopen does - "Keep your eyes on the Lord Jesus Christ" and NOT on the brethren!

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Last edited by George; 07-01-2009 at 02:06 PM.