[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

Matthew 28:19-20 (KJV)
Go ye therefore,
and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name
of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.
Amen.

Originally Posted by PB1789

I think that it should read "teach" rather than "make disciples".
Why---? Because it is up to The Holy Spirit to make disciples,,,not us.

I think along the same lines, that this is the nature of the King James Bible wisdom on the verse.

As a little sidenote, note how Bible books end on a positive note, and often with an 'amen'. This is one of the many infallible proofs for the ending of Mark against the insipid idea that Mark ends with the woman afraid on verse 8.

Yesterday I was reading at the excellent William Grady book 'Final Authority' (1993) and he mentions that point in his chapter. A very, very solid book (yesterday I read the first 60 pages, now I am a bit more familiar with the material than when I first read it about a decade ago). Since it is a classic I would also use it as an example of the strength and pizazz of King James Bible writings in recent years long before the Riplinger surge (whatever one's view of the Gail Riplinger writings, some doofus opponents try to write as if the King James Bible defense was dormant and quiescent before her writings ). There are many other books and writings and speakers to reference, however William Grady's book has a classic sense, a good style, a type of breezy thoroughness. Perhaps my view is biased a bit as it was my 2nd KJB book; and the first wide-ranging one.

Oh, some King James Bibles have the following note on Matthew 28:19.

teach...: or, make disciples, or, Christians of all nations

However this is not in the 1611 online, a rare case in my experience, generally the footnotes in e.g. crosswalk.com are in the 1611 edition.
http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti...ePosition=1255

So I would like to find out when that margin note was first placed. An early edition, or Scrivener, or something else ?

The King James Bible translates maqhteusate (5657) as "teach" and instruct in a few places. Here are the four usages.

Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them,
Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven
is like unto a man that is an householder,
which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

Matthew 27:57
When the even was come,
there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph,
who also himself was Jesus' disciple:

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name
of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 14:21
And when they had preached the gospel to that city,
and had taught many,
they returned again to Lystra,
and to Iconium, and Antioch,

Thus it is easy to see that "disciple" while in the range of meaning of the word would not work well at all (e.g. Acts 14:21) in some verses and is far from being a primary and necessary translation. The NT refers to disciples of Jesus, of John, and even of the Pharisees, an existing relationship, afaik we never see the phrase of "making disciples" and PB1789 gives a reasonable explanation as to why that would be particularly out-of-joint in Matthew 28:19.

Oh, there may also be the question of the missing verb to "make" disciples (ok, the verb doing double-duty as a verb and noun) however on that one I will happily defer to any Greek-savvy folks.

And it is possible that the Latin reflects the "teaching" concept more directly, as that is the simple translation of docete, and Jerome speaks similarly (through the Aquinas section, I haven't primary sourced this one) :

Jerome:
Observe the order of these injunctions. He bids the Apostles first to teach all nations, then to wash them with the sacrament of faith, and after faith and baptism then to teach them what things they ought to observe; “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.”

Also in synch is the John Calvin commentary.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calc...ml#ii.li-p18.1

Note that some translators and commentators have convert or preach instead of teach.

There are many interesting early church writer references, I used to look them up to refute the really dumb assertion that the original Matthew 28:19 did not have "of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" from Conybeare and Ploughman and some moderns. In fact that phrase is very possibly the single best-attested phrase in the whole Bible in early church writings. And is virtually 100% in MS and version consistency.

Shalom,
Steven