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Old 07-06-2009, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: "CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?"

[quote=Gord;23367]I will answer your question within the quote in blue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by George View Post
Aloha brother Gord,

This is just a short follow up to my comments in my Post #121 (in response to your Post #120). In order to know where you are coming from – would you answer a few questions? These questions are not meant to “trip you up” or to be used against you:

1. Have you ever been a Calvinist? YES? Or NO?
Not until only recently

2. Were you a Calvinist BEFORE I posted my Series on Calvinism? YES? Or NO?
No, but I thank you for lighting my inquisitive fire.

3. Are you NOW a Calvinist? YES? Or NO?
Yes

Did you notice that Dr. Keith Sherlin used about 20 verses (all from corrupt bibles) presenting his case for the doctrine of “Unconditional Election”, whereas I used approximately 85 verses of Holy Scripture in presenting my case against “Unconditional Election” in my Post #9 on Calvinism (not counting any verses that I may have quoted in the subsequent Posts {Posts #13; #16; #25; & #37} that were all related to the issue of “Unconditional Election”)?
Yes of course I noticed that, the version is not the issue, ELECT and PREDESTINE mean the same thing in plain english regardless of the version.

Granted – I could have twisted, wrested, and taken many of those verses out of their context to make them “mean” something other than what they “SAY” in order to “PROVE” MY POINT; but if I did, it would be up to you to “POINT OUT” where I “misused” (or “abused”) the Scriptures –and, “point by point”, demonstrate WHERE I WAS WRONG.

Just to say: “Brother George, as lot of the scripture references you provided especially on election, just didn't make any sense to me.” doesn’t tell me anything.
See my answer and you quote below.

....I will post a further response later as time is my enemy at the moment.
....
From your post #1,
Quote:
1. Unlike Arminianism (or as Calvinists purportedly report) - I did not “PICK” the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour! I HEARD “the Gospel of Christ” (the same one preached by the Apostle Paul – [Romans 1:16, 15:19, 15:29]; and BELIEVED (in my heart) the word[Romans 10:17] of God concerning Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection [1 Corinthians 15:1-4]; and RECEIVED the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour [John 1:12] and became a son of God.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I did not “PICK” Christ as my Saviour – I BELIEVED on Him and He saved me!

2. Unlike Calvinism - I believe that The Lord Jesus Christ’s sacrificial death and shed blood are totally sufficient for the sins of the whole world, but are only efficacious for those people who BELIEVE on Him!

1 Timothy 4:10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that BELIEVE.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

3.Unlike the way Calvinist’s explain how I supposedly believe (I just “decide”) or the way Arminianism may actually be - I just don’t DECIDE if I “want to be saved or not” – I must first BELIEVE the Gospel, before God saves me [Ephesians 1:13].

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that BELIEVE on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. {“nor of the will of the flesh” - I don’t DECIDE anything! God determined before the world began that those who will BELIEVE on His son shall be saved!}

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through himmight be saved.
18 He that BELIEVETH on him is not condemned: but he that BELIEVETH NOT is condemned already, because he hath NOT BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Notice - the “operative word” in all of the above testimony is “BELIEVE” (i.e. BELIEF). I believe that before anyone can receive salvation, they must first “BELIEVE” THE Gospel of Christ and then (and only then) will God save them.

4. Unlike most Armenians - I DO NOT believe that once a person is saved (born again) that they can “lose” their salvation. And Unlike most Calvinists -I believe GOD PRESERVES His saints – NOT in “the perseverance of the saints”.

Psalms 31:23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.
Psalms 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psalms 97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
I agree, but you failed to show the reason WHY. {I did? - I don't think so! Please read the comments listed below from my Posts on Calvinism. I covered the two verses you cite and plenty more.}

and
Quote:
1Pe*1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
and
Quote:
Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
"God takes it completely out of the hands of MAN. He made that choice for us. This is neither Arminian, or Calvin I read this from the KJV of my bible. It just so happens that John Calvin agreed with Paul."
Aloha brother Gord,

I am saddened and disappointed that my study on Calvinism has prompted you to become a "Calvinist". But since I believe in Christian "liberty", I will not castigate or berate you over your "decision", especially since I do NOT have "dominion over your faith" [2Corinthians 1:24].

I said:
Quote:
Did you notice that Dr. Keith Sherlin used about 20 verses (all from corrupt bibles) presenting his case for the doctrine of “Unconditional Election”, whereas I used approximately 85 verses of Holy Scripture in presenting my case against “Unconditional Election” in my Post #9 on Calvinism (not counting any verses that I may have quoted in the subsequent Posts {Posts #13; #16; #25; & #37} that were all related to the issue of “Unconditional Election”)?
To which you replied:
Quote:
"Yes of course I noticed that, the version is not the issue, ELECT and PREDESTINE mean the same thing in plain english regardless of the version."
Your statement:"the version is not the issue" and "regardless of the version" is even a bigger disappointment to me, because you fail to see the importance of deriving "pure doctrine" from an equally "PURE SOURCE". [Matthew 7:18; Luke 6:43-44; Jeremiah 2:13; Psalms 33:4; Psalms 119:140, 160;' Proverbs 30:5] Isaiah 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

Your statement: "
ELECT and PREDESTINE mean the same thing in plain english regardless of the version" is in serious error. "Election" PRECEDES "Predestination". God "elects" us based on His "foreknowledge"; He THEN "predestinates" us "to be conformed to the image of his Son". {These are two separate "operations" of God.}

Please read the Scriptures:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


The "election" of the saints is the operation of God CHOOSING us "in Him before the foundation of the world."

The "predestination" of the saints is the operation of God wherein, AFTER He has "elected" us - He "predestinates" us "to be conformed to the image of his Son".

That is - AFTER God "CHOSE" us, He "predestinated" the eternal destiny of each and every one of us. Or to put it another way: "Election" = God "Choosing". "Predestination" = God predetermining our eternal destiny. BUT this whole issue still comes down to God's "foreknowledge".

Did you read what I said about the "FOREKNOWLEDGE" of God in AV1611 BIBLE FORUMS > DOCTRINE > " CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?" Post #9
Quote:

U = “Unconditional Election”

Calvinists state:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual.

I do not agree with the statement: God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual.” If the statement is in reference to “works”, I will agree, but if it is in reference to “BELIEF”, then I CANNOT agree. “ANYTHING” would include “BELIEF” – can you see the confusion (again) of thinking that “BELIEF” (an operation of the heart) is a “WORK” (an operation of the flesh)?

No one can argue with:He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual.All genuine Bible believers would go along with this statement {since MERIT = WORKS}, unless someone lumps in “MERIT” = “BELIEF”! You see how it goes? Can you see how vitally important WORDS are?

IF “MERIT” equals “WORKS”, then we can agree with the statement, without any reservations, for all true Bible believers know that God has not chosen the “elect” because of their “WORKS” – that would nullify BELIEF & FAITH & SALVATION by GRACE! But, if “MERIT” includes “BELIEF”, that would nullify the separate purposes of the heart and the flesh, making them both THE SAME – which they are NOT; which would ultimately make “BELIEF” a WORK” – which it is NOT! {Can you see how TOTAL DEPRAVITY is the Lynchpin” upon which “Calvinism” relies?}

Let’s examine the verses cited [Ephesians 1:4-8] in context and “rightly divide” God’s words:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

NOTHING in Ephesians 1:4-8 tells us THE BASIS for God “choosing” us (the “elect”). It is clear, however, that God has “chosen us in Him - before the foundation of the world” to beholy and without blame before him in love:– are ALL Christians “holy and without blame before him in love”? Christians can believe in God “choosing”, and in "calling", "election", "predestination", "justification", and "eternal salvation", "preservation" (NOT "perseverance") without being a Calvinist. We also can believe in "whosoever will" without being an Armenian! It's NOT an "either/or" proposition, no matter how hard some (in either "camp") try to force us into one or the other.

The chronological order is:[Ephesians 1:13]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, God did not look down from Heaven before the foundation of the world and go – Eenee Meenee Miny Moe; nor did He willy nilly just “choose” without “FOREKNOWLEDGE”; and here is where “the rubber meets the road” - WHAT WAS THAT FOREKNOWLEDGE BASED ON?

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
The Scriptures clearly state that the “Elect” are according to the “foreknowledge” of God the Father – But the BASIS of “foreknowledge” is not clearly defined in the above verse.

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
In the above verse - “Foreknowledge” is clearly defined as God “knowing”, ahead of time, about events that were going to take place in the future.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
In the above verse those: “whom he did “foreknow” are “predestined to be conformed to the image of his son”. Are all Christians “conformed” to the “image” of Christ today? Has there ever been a time in church history when they were? This verse is not talking about our “Salvation”; it’s talking about how “whom he did “foreknow” (all those who have been saved - born again) will someday be just like Jesus Christ. [1Corinthians 15:49] The BASIS of God’s “foreknowledge” is NOT explained (or defined) in the verse – only the fact that all thosewhom he did foreknow are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” To be “conformed to the image of His Son” is the ultimate destiny of every single person (man, woman, or child) that has ever BELIEVED in the Lord Jesus Christ!

Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
In the above verse: those He “foreknew” are clearly Jews (Hebrews) – NOT Christians! How someone can build a “Major Doctrine” upon so few verses is beyond me.
And in the same Post:
Quote:
SOME MORE EXAMPLES OF “FOREKNOWLEDGE”

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. {Please read through to John 6:59}

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that BELIEVED NOT, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, THEREFORE said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. {See: John 6:44 – 59}

Please notice that the three foregoing examples of “foreknowledge” clearly demonstrate that:

#1. The Lord Jesus Christ refused to “commit Himself unto them” – BECAUSE HE “FOREKNEWAHEAD OF TIME what the people would do. {That is - He based His actions in response to His “foreknowledge” of the people’s intent.}

#2. The Lord Jesus Christ MAKES A SPECIFIC STATEMENT – Based on the fact that HE “FOREKNEWAHEAD OF TIME “who should betray Him”. {That is – He specifically said something in response to His “foreknowledge” of future events.}

#3. The Lord Jesus Christ specifically MAKES A STATEMENT – In response to the fact that He FORE -knew from the beginning who they were that BELIEVED NOT!!! Did you get that? The Lord Jesus Christ makes a particular statement - BECAUSE He knew AHEAD OF TIME, "from the beginning", (BASED ON HIS “FOREKNOWLEDGE”) “WHO they were that BELIEVED NOT, and WHO should betray Him”. Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, based his actions and response on WHAT someone BELIEVED or did NOT BELIEVE!
And again from the same Post:
Quote:
Calvinists state:
Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).”
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

WHAT do the two verses cited have to do with being “elected into salvation”? We are “elected” according to the “foreknowledge” of God. That “foreknowledge” is based on SOMETHING and we know that it is NOT on our WORKS (i.e. something we have done in the flesh). Then WHAT is God’s “foreknowledge” BASED ON? That is the $64,000,000 question!
I wonder - did you read the part of the same Post where I said:
Quote:
Let’s examine a few verses of Scripture and compare the Holy words of God with the doctrines of Calvinism – shall we?

{Rather than quote the verses - Please read 2 Thessalonians 2:1-14}

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
WHY didn’t God say: because they received not the ELECTION, that they might be saved.
WHY all the concern about people having “the love of the truth” – IF they are already unconditionally elected into salvation”? What difference would it make, whether they loved “the truth”, or NOT - IF they are already “unconditionally elected into salvation”?

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
WHY is God sending them “strong delusion”, so that “they should BELIEVE a lie” – IF some are elected into salvation, (and) others are not; WHY bother with sending people “strong delusion, that they should believe a lie– IF some are elected into salvation, (and) others are not? What is the point? WHY the emphasis on “belief” instead of election, unless “belief” or “unbelief” (NOT “electionALONE) is the ultimate deciding factor in determining whether we are saved or lost?

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
WHY the concern about people either believing the truth or NOT believing the truth – IF some are elected into salvation, others are not? If Calvinism is true - shouldn’t the verse read: That they all might be damned who are not elected into salvation? WHY does Almighty God keep emphasizing “BELIEF” – and Calvinism keeps emphasizing “Total Depravity” or “Unconditional Election”?

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
WHY do the Scriptures stress “belief of the truth:” when talking about God choosing us “to salvation” – rather than “ELECTION”? IF some are elected into salvation, (and) others are not is true - WHERE does belief of the truth:fit in? Over and over, again and again, God keeps emphasizing “BELIEF”, “BELIEVE”, “BELIEVED”, or “BELIEVING”; WHAT is the point – IF some are elected into salvation, others are not? Isn’t it obvious by now – that Calvinism is a “DEAD END”? IF some are elected into salvation, others are not– since it’s all predetermined any way - WHY BOTHER? Some people “are elected into salvation” and other people “are not”! That is, according to Calvinism, some (us “lucky” ones) are elected into salvation, others (you “unlucky” ones) are not {or in other words - some have been “ELECTED” to DAMNATION!}

But what about “Whosoever Will” (or “whosoever will NOT”) that God has stated in His Holy word {and promised}? Is God a man, that He should lie?
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Does our God make an offer to men (and women) and not mean it? Is Almighty God disingenuous when He says WHOSOEVER WILL? Does “WHOSOEVER WILL” only mean those who “are elected into salvation”? Or is it a General Call to all of mankind?

Calvinism has some “major problems” with God’s Holy word, and I for one refuse to follow a man who lived 450 years ago, who although he might have been extremely intelligent, certainly didn’t have all of the answers to God’s Holy word. No man has ever “figured out” all of God’s word. And to think that some man who lived over 400 years ago had all of the answers is absurd! Calvin didn’t even have all of the QUESTIONS – never mind all of the answers! {This is WHY I am “leery” of ALLsystems of biblical interpretation and theological formulations}
2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

WHY is a person’s “calling” determined by Paul’s “Gospel” -
IF some are elected into salvation, others are not? WHAT does “believing” the “gospel” have to do with “the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” - IF some are elected into salvation, (and) others are not?

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
WHY don’t the Scriptures state: the word of God, which effectually worketh in those that are unconditionally elected, instead of those that “believe”? IF “Unconditional Election is God’s sole “modus operandi” – WHY the emphasis on “belief”?

Unconditional Election (as “Total Depravity” did before) ignores the testimony of the Scriptures about BELIEF”, “BELIEVE”, “BELIEVED”, or “BELIEVING”.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
WHY DOES God command us to BELIEVE, IF some are elected into salvation, others are not -unless our salvation is “conditioned” on our Believing first, WHY the emphasis on “believing” when we are already “unconditionally elected”? WHY the COMMANDMENT to BELIEVE?

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
WHY IS God WORKING at getting people to BELIEVE on Him, IF some are elected into salvation, (and) others are not? WHY “WORK” at all to get them to BELIEVE?

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
WHY PRAY for someone to BELIEVE, IF they are already Unconditionally elected into salvation, (and) others are not”? WHY the concern about someone believing on the Lord “through their word”– IF they are already unconditionally elected into salvation, (and) others are not”!

Romans 4:24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; {& Philippians 1:29}
WHY is IMPUTATION dependent on our BELIEVING on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord” – IF we are already unconditionally elected into salvation, (and) others are not”? Wouldn’t it (imputation) be based on our “unconditional election”?

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
WHY isn’t there any mention of “Election” in the verse – for example according to Calvinism the verse should have said: For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only tobe unconditionally elected into salvation”? Once again WHY does God continually emphasize “BELIEF”?

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
HOW is Paul “a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting”? Is Paul’s Conversion a “PATTERN” of unconditional election? Paul’s Conversion is a “PATTERN” {example} of God’s Grace to an unbeliever [“Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious” . . . who “obtained mercy, because” (he) “did it ignorantly in unbelief.” 1Timothy 1:13] The Scriptures did NOT say that Paul obtained mercy because he was “unconditionally elected into salvation! The Scriptures did NOT say: that Paul was a pattern to the elect which were unconditionally elected into salvation”! According to the Holy Bible, the Apostle Paul is a PATTERN - “to them which should hereafter BELIEVE on him to life everlasting”! The Apostle Paul’s conversion is the classic “PATTERN” of an unbeliever who BELIEVES on Him (The Lord Jesus Christ) to life everlasting.”
I believe that I summed up the issue of election, foreknowledge, predestination, etc. in my last Post:

AV1611 BIBLE FORUMS > DOCTRINE > " CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?" Post #67

Quote:
I = “Irresistible Grace”

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Question: WHO is “ordained”? Answer: THOSE {the elect} whom God “foreknew”. Question: WHO did God “foreknow”? Answer: THOSE whom God did “predestinate”. Question: WHO did God “predestinate”? Answer: THOSE whom He “called”. Question: WHO did God “call”? Answer: THOSE whom He “justified”. Question: WHO did God “JUSTIFY”? Answer: THOSE who received “faith”. Question: WHO received “faith”? Answer: THOSE who “BELIEVEDON THE Lord Jesus Christ! {That wasn’t so hard – was it?}
{Now – REVERSE THE ORDER!}
And what about my earlier Post:

AV1611 BIBLE FORUMS > DOCTRINE > " CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?" Post #3

Quote:
T = “Total Depravity” (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)

And herein is the first major difference between most Calvinists and myself. In their concern for men having absolutely NOTHING to do with EARNING their salvation, the Calvinist (through the doctrine of “TOTAL DEPRAVITY”) make it impossible for a man (or woman) to even BELIEVE – unless they are “regenerated” FIRST!

Now, I believe that there is NOTHING we can DO to EARN God’s Salvation; but there is SOMETHING that we MUST DO to RECEIVE God’s Salvation – WE MUST FIRST BELIEVE!
THE QUESTION IS: . . .Sirs, WHAT MUST I DO to be saved? THE BIBLICAL ANSWER: And they said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
[Acts 16:30-31]


There is a huge difference between sinful men (and women) being unable (in the flesh) to DO anything to EARN their Salvation, and men and women first “BELIEVING” the Gospel (with their heart) in order to RECEIVE God’s Free Gift of Eternal Salvation!

Now the Calvinists (in their concern for man having NOTHING to do with his Salvation) cannot accept that we BELIEVE before we are “regenerated” (for, according to Calvinism, that would be a WORK on the part of man, and since Salvation is:Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;[Titus 3:5] then (according to the Calvinists) we must be “regenerated” before we can believe – since BELIEVING (according to Calvinists) is a WORK. But BELIEF is solely an operation and function of the HEART – NOT the flesh! “WORKS of righteousness” are done in the FLESH. The heart is our “faculty” where our will resides; the flesh is our “substance” that produces WORKS!

As I said before - the problem is: that for all of these years (since the time of Calvin) – most of the “scribes” & “scholars” have failed to clearly DEFINE the “ATTRIBUTES” of man {according to the Holy Scriptures}, and in failing to do so they have confused (i.e. mixed up) “works” that are done in the “flesh”, and BELIEF {an operation solely performed by the heart}. And not only that, in failing to discern between our SUBSTANCE (body, soul, & spirit), and our FACULTIES (heart, mind, & conscience) they have ended up attributing “works” to an attribute of man (the heart) that has absolutely nothing to do with the actual performance or execution of “works”.
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In this age (under the “New Covenant”) God is engaged in a “WORK”:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The “WORK” of God (in this age) is to convince people (through His word) to “BELIEVE” the Gospel. The purpose of the Gospel is to bring people to the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. IF God “gives” us our “BELIEF”, WHY does He have to WORK at it? If our “BELIEF” is a “gift” from God - where then is there any “WORK” on God’s part? According to the Scriptures, God is now working at getting people to believe on him whom he hath sent.[Acts 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.] If our “BELIEF” is a “gift” from God, there would be no “WORK” involved at all (on God’s part). Why would God try to “convince” someone of the very same thing (belief) that He is going to “give” them anyway?

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

We obtained like precious "faith" (God's precious "gift" to us) by "believing" in our hearts, “after” we heard the Gospel of the Grace of God.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, AFTER that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Please notice the “Chronological Order” that leads up to our Salvation: We TRUSTED, AFTER we HEARD the word of TRUTH (The Gospel). We were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise”, AFTER WE BELIEVEDNOTBEFORE”! [Ephesians 1:13]:

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In this age (under the “New Covenant”) God is engaged in a “WORK”:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The “WORK” of God (in this age) is to convince people (through His word) to “BELIEVE” the Gospel. The purpose of the Gospel is to bring people to the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. IF God “gives” us our “BELIEF”, WHY does He have to WORK at it? If our “BELIEF” is a “gift” from God - where then is there any “WORK” on God’s part? According to the Scriptures, God is now working at getting people to believe on him whom he hath sent.[Acts 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.] If our “BELIEF” is a “gift” from God, there would be no “WORK” involved at all (on God’s part). Why would God try to “convince” someone of the very same thing (belief) that He is going to “give” them anyway?

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

We obtained like precious "faith" (God's precious "gift" to us) by "believing" in our hearts, “after” we heard the Gospel of the Grace of God.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, AFTER that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Please notice the “Chronological Order” that leads up to our Salvation: We TRUSTED, AFTER we HEARD the word of TRUTH (The Gospel). We were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise”, AFTER WE BELIEVEDNOTBEFORE”! [Ephesians 1:13]:

In all of these “examples” (and there are many, many more) we see certain principles and precepts that are in play throughout: God’s GRACE (always first and foremost), without which, no one could be saved; man’s “BELIEF” in God and in His Holy words; man’s “Trust” and “FAITH” in God and in His Holy words; and God honoring that “BELIEF” (first), then along with man’s “Trust” & “Faith”, by blessing the man whose heart truly and sincerely “BELIEVED”.

When a person BELIEVES the Gospel (in his heart), there is absolutely NO connection to “works” in any way - because the purpose, function, and operation of the heart is not the same as the purpose, function, and operation of the flesh. I repeat: “BELIEVING” is the sole operation of the heart. “Works”, on the other hand, are an operation of the flesh and have nothing to DO with “BELIEVING” the Gospel of Christ, nor can they have anything to DO with our salvation.

In this age (under the “New Covenant”) God is engaged in a “WORK”:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The “WORK” of God (in this age) is to convince people (through His word) to “BELIEVE” the Gospel. The purpose of the Gospel is to bring people to the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. IF God “gives” us our “BELIEF”, WHY does He have to WORK at it? If our “BELIEF” is a “gift” from God - where then is there any “WORK” on God’s part? According to the Scriptures, God is now working at getting people to believe on him whom he hath sent.[Acts 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.] If our “BELIEF” is a “gift” from God, there would be no “WORK” involved at all (on God’s part). Why would God try to “convince” someone of the very same thing (belief) that He is going to “give” them anyway? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the very beginning of the creation of Adam, and up to the present time, God has wanted people to "believe" Him and obey Him. There have been different Dispensations; and God has required different things of people under the different "Covenants"; but the one constant thread running throughout all of the ages (Dispensations), and under all of the "Covenants" is God's consistent requirement that we "Believe" Him (His Holy words). He does not FORCE us, or MAKE us "believe" Him, but He "REQUIRES" it!

God has required of everyone under every Covenant and in every "age" that they "BELIEVE" His words {Oral or Written} and OBEY them. We are very fortunate that under the "New Covenant” - All we have to DO to get saved is to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, . . . ." {When WE "BELIEVE" in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection and "RECEIVE" Him as our personal Saviour, we have done (obeyed) all that God has required of us (under the "New" Covenant) to get saved.} God never said that we are tooDEPRAVED” to believe Him – He has said that there is nothing we can DO (“WORKS”) to save ourselves {Romans 1:16; Romans 3:19-28; Galatians 2:16}.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

{If you are a “Calvinist” - you are going to have to CHANGE the “Scriptural order” in which a person gets saved. Or you will CHANGE the Holy words of God to “FIT” your ‘doctrine”!}