Let’s get the Chronology and the facts of this issue straight – and without pointing fingers and or making accusations (if possible).
When I came on the Forum (3/8/08), after browsing around for a while I noticed that a few folks on the Forum were being critical of brother Ruckman. On 3/08/08 I simply asked three questions of the members:
#1. Have you ever read any of the many books, commentaries, booklets, pamphlets, etc. that brother Ruckman has written? (And if so - how many? You don't have to list the names just the number -I'll trust you to be honest and truthful).
#2. Have you ever heard any of Peter Ruckman's numerous preaching and teaching tapes? (If so - how many? You don't have to list the names just the number -I'll trust you to be honest and truthful).
#3. Have you ever actually met brother Ruckman or been at any of his meetings where he has either preached or taught the word of God? (If so - where and when? I'll trust you to be honest and truthful).”
I never called anyone names or made any accusations. I just wanted to know if those people really knew much about brother Ruckman or were they going mostly on hear-say. [
Proverbs 18:13] “
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.”
As I recall - only 2 people replied to those inquiries: Jerry said he had read 2 of Ruckman’s books and some articles on line and Tim had said that he had read an article on line and didn’t care for his crude language (or something along those lines). I never saw a reply from you. (So far so good.)
On 3/11/08 I gave my personal testimony about what I knew about brother Ruckman and basically made an appeal to all, that if they didn’t know brother Ruckman, maybe they shouldn’t be criticizing him. I don’t think that was unreasonable on my part. I never insisted that they not criticize him; I just tried to be reasonable and appealed to the members for “righteous judgment”.
Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
That was nearly a month ago – and all went well and peaceful until “the Geologist” came along and expressed his appreciation for brother Ruckman. And then all of a sudden the criticism started – again (from the same people)!
And so I came back on (not in defense of brother Ruckman), but wondering why anyone would be so quick to “Dump” on brother Ruckman, when hardly anything had been said about him (pro or con) for nearly a month. After the “negative comments by Jerry and Tim, I informed “Geologist” that they had been the same people who had been critical of brother Ruckman in the past. (Unjustifiable so in my judgment, since they knew very little about him personally and most of their criticism was based on hear-say.)
I said:
“I don't know exactly why Brother Tim has a problem with brother Ruckman, but I do have a strong suspicion as to why brother Jerry has a "bone of contention" with him.
Brother Jerry is a big "fan" of Brother David Cloud (He has referred to brother Cloud on this Forum and has "linked" to brother Cloud's site on occasion). I have visited brother Jerry's web page several times and it is real clear that he has a real high regard for brother David Cloud.”
If you go through the 450+ posts of brother Jerry you can verify what I say. Now anyone can be a “fan” of anyone they choose – I am a big believer in “real” Christian Liberty. Associate with whomsoever you want. Push whichever Christian “Celebrity” and his (or her) books, etc. you want, you won’t hear a peep out of me.
However, if you are going to be critical of someone you should be more specific than throwing out general: “
foul mouth - or foul typewriting fingers” or “wacky or heretical doctrine”, etc., etc.
Search through all 49 posts that I have made on this forum. Except for my personal testimony of my knowledge of him and criticizing those who have criticized him, you will not find one post where I recommend any of his books, articles, tapes, etc. You will not find me quoting him one time. You will not find me posting a “link” to any of his web pages. Do I like him – you bet I do! Do I always agree with him – you bet I don’t! Do I always approve of his rough and crude language – no I don’t! (But it’s not “
foul” – like brother Jerry claims.)
And now we come to this latest “squabble”. I have no idea why I upset Jeff, but I must have because all of a sudden he jumped on me for no apparent reason (at least that I can see) and has made some unfounded claims about what I have said – so here goes – I am going to list the posts and then (calmly and slowly and deliberatively and carefully) I am going to examine what was said and comment:
From Jeff:
Quote:
Originally Posted by George
I find it very "instructive" that the same two people didn't hesitate to (once again) jump on brother Ruckman and freely criticize him. I thought we were done with that, but I guess as long as you are "nice" and "sweet" about it, that you can "bad mouth" a brother whenever you want to!
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“
George, what I get out of your words is that it's alright to criticize those who don't agree with you, such as Jerry and Brother Tim. However it is not alright to criticize those that you are a big fan of, such as Dr. Ruckman.
Is a man's character determined solely on what their views are and not how they conduct themselves?
Do you not see a double standard here?”
George’s reply to Jeff:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
George, what I get out of your words is that it's alright to criticize those who don't agree with you, such as Jerry and Brother Tim. However it is not alright to criticize those that you are a big fan of, such as Dr. Ruckman.
Is a man's character determined soley on what their views are and not how they conduct themselves?
Do you not see a double standard here?
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Did you read my words? "what I get out of your words". It's not "what
you "get out of my words" - It's - what did I say? I never once said (or intimated) "
that it's alright to criticize those who don't agree with you" No, not once! Please don't put words in my mouth.
I am saying let's stop criticizing brother Ruckman period! Have you seen me criticize brother Cloud or any other famous "Christian personality"? Why keep "beating up" on brother Ruckman if you have never met the man; or heard him preach or teach; or listened to his preaching & teaching tapes; or only read a couple of books by him? Hmmm?
There are other "fish to fry" out there. "Is a man's character determined solely on what their views are and not how they conduct themselves?" Good question! And I will answer it thusly: Is a man's character determined solely on what he says (or is reported to have said), or on his fruit? [
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.] We are not to judge by words, but by fruit - Is their anyone here that knows brother Ruckman well enough to be a "fruit inspector", if not then, let's drop the sniping of him - that's all.
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Check my posts out - you haven't seen me laud brother Ruckman; or "recommend him or his books or his tapes to anyone. I haven't "linked" to his site in all of my posts. I don't recommend any "Commentators" or "Commentaries" when it comes to Bible study.
I would be holding a double standard if I justified any wrongdoing that brother Ruckman does or has done. I never have and I never will!
Why do people judge other people when they know little or nothing about them?
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Why judge at all, if you don't have to?
Originally Posted by Jeff (Another review -
Underlines are mine – George)
"
George, what I get out of your words is that it's alright to criticize those who don't agree with you, such as Jerry and Brother Tim. However it is not alright to criticize those that you are a big fan of, such as Dr. Ruckman."
I posted my answer to Jeff (see above) and now I am going to carefully examine what he said –
again.
“
George, what I get out of your words” (I cannot help what any person “gets” out of my words – I cannot control how someone “interprets” them I can only try to be very careful to convey my ideas, thoughts, and beliefs in as clear a manner as I can.)
“
what I get out of your words is that it's alright to criticize those who don't agree with you", (Now for Jeff to “prove” what he has just said or “claims”- he is going to have to reproduce those very same words or something very close to them from what I have written (49 posts) on this Forum. If he is honest and has any integrity, he must produce the words – my words - not what he “thinks” I “meant”!)
I have never said or claimed what he is attributing to me. He is missing the point – which is: a few people on this Forum had been criticizing brother Ruckman on a “
regular basis” and I thought that, if they don’t know him or haven’t read him that they shouldn’t be so critical of him. Does that make me unreasonable? Does that make me a hypocrite? I think not.
"
George, what I get out of your words is that it's alright to criticize those who don't agree with you, such as Jerry and Brother Tim. However it is not alright to criticize those that you are a big fan of, such as Dr. Ruckman."
I just pointed out that Jerry and Brother Tim are at the forefront of those few brothers on this Forum that have been critical of brother Ruckman. If it’s not true –
prove it. If it is true why get
upset? I wasn’t being critical of their beliefs, their walk, or their words; I was just stating a provable fact. (Have we gotten so thin-skinned that we cannot point out the truth?) I have asked the brethren to refrain from continually snipping at brother Ruckman – is that an unreasonable request? Is it Christ-like to continually criticize a brother in Christ – who you don’t even know?
Brother Jeff, you have done me a disservice in attributing to me something that I have not said. I have read many of your posts and I have found that I have been in agreement with you most of the time, that’s why I can’t understand why you suddenly “jumped” me on this issue.
"
However it is not alright to criticize those that you are a big fan of, such as Dr. Ruckman." Again – I never said that or intimated it, and you would be hard pressed to prove it from
my own words. I never said that it is not alright to criticize those that I am a big fan of. (Why do you keep putting words in my mouth? Or why are you criticizing me for something that I never said – but you “
think” I said? Or you “
think” I “
meant”? How can you hold me responsible for something that I haven’t said?
And by the way – other than my testimony about brother Ruckman and my attempts to get the brethren to stop dumping on him, you couldn’t find anything in any of my other posts where I talk about him; praise him; or recommend him. (If you don't believe me - Check it out)
"
Is a man's character determined solely on what their views are and not how they conduct themselves?" (I believe I answered this question adequately): Good question! And I will answer it thusly: Is a man's character determined solely on what he says? (or is
reported to have said?), or on his fruit?
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
We are not to judge by words, but by
fruit - Is their anyone here that knows brother Ruckman well enough to be a "
fruit inspector", if not then, let's drop the sniping of him - that's all.
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
"
Do you not see a double standard here?" (Again what double standard are you talking about? The one that you “
think” I “
meant”?) I am not guilty of a double standard, unless you can prove it from
my words – not your “private” interpretation of them.
Please notice: I haven’t called you names and neither have I misrepresented you words. I will post my answer to your second post later.
Yours for the Lord Jesus Christ and for His Holy Word,
George