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Old 06-18-2009, 03:17 AM
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greenbear greenbear is offline
Join Date: May 2009
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Posts: 492

Originally Posted by custer View Post
In light of the most recent incomprehensible posts (by George and greenbear, just to be clear,) I thought it was necessary to quote myself above.

I want to make it perfectly clear that I had never even heard of ANYONE believing a "sex act" was alluded to in Judges 14...and, frankly, I think it takes a dirty mind to have read that into the passage! These 30 men in the passage did not sweet-talk and sleep with this woman - they threatened to KILL her, for crying out loud! Plus, as my 16-year-old son pointed out after hearing all this garbage, we're talking about ONE woman, THIRTY men, and SEVEN days...what in the world?????? FILTH!!!
Also, in verse one of chapter 15, Samson decides he wants to "go in to" his wife...does anybody actually think he would WANT her if he thought she had been with those other men??? (Yes, he had a harlot in 16:1, but that's different than choosing a wife! Right, men?)
Greenbear's "Samson's metaphor for the sex act" was a clever tool of the devil to plant that nasty thought in the mind of everyone reading this thread EVERY TIME we read Judges 14 from now on!

And, BornAgain, there is much left to play out won't get any answers out of George, though - he refuses to tell anyone how or why he posted a "study" with the glaring errors I mentioned in my post #22! (That's where I have SEVENTEEN verses that prove he is in error, plus I showed where his practical example (headship) was completely WRONG!) So far, George simply WON'T/CAN'T address the obvious problems with his "exposition" (as greenbear calls it I call it part exercise in "copy and paste" and part fluff. The only things edifying were the opening remarks and scripture!

I don't base my interpretation of scripture on any commentary. The only reason I'm listing these three is to show I am not some lone sick freak way out in left field here. I fear I'm about to be figuratively burned at the stake as a pervert or have to pin some scarlet letter to my blouse. Sheesh.

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Judges 14:18

If ye had not ploughed with my heifer - If my wife had not been unfaithful to my bed, she would not have been unfaithful to my secret; and, you being her paramours, your interest was more precious to her than that of her husband. She has betrayed me through her attachment to you. Calmet has properly remarked, in quoting the Septuagint, that to plough with one's heifer, or to plough in another man's ground, are delicate turns of expression used both by the Greeks and Latins, as well as the Hebrews, to point out a wife's infidelities...

In this sense Samson's words were understood by the Septuagint, by the Syriac, and by Rabbi Levi. See Bochart, Hierozoic. p. 1, lib. ii., cap. 41, col. 406. The metaphor was a common one, and we need seek for no other interpretation of the words of Samson.

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Judges 14:18

and he said unto them, if ye had not ploughed with my heifer; meaning his wife, whom he compares to an heifer, young, wanton, and unaccustomed to the yoke3; and by "ploughing" with her, he alludes to such creatures being employed therein, making use of her to get the secret out of him, and then plying her closely to obtain it from her; and this diligent application and search of theirs, by this means to inform themselves, was like ploughing up ground; they got a discovery of that which before lay hid, and without which they could never have had the knowledge of, as he adds:

ye had not found out my riddle; the explanation of it. Ben Gersome and Abarbinel interpret ploughing of committing adultery with her; in which sense the phrase is used by Greek and Latin writers4; but the first sense is best, for it is not said, "ploughed my heifer", but with her.

Matthew Poole's Commentary on the Holy Bible
Judges 14:18
Ver. 18. If you had not employed my wife to find it out, as men plough up the ground with a heifer, thereby discovering its hidden parts: he calls her
heifer, either because he now suspected her wantonness and too much familiarity with that friend which she afterwards married; or because she was joined with him in the same yoke; or rather, because they used such in ploughing.

I really don't understand the reason for these hysterics. My viewpoint on the meaning of this verse is not exactly unheard of.

The idea that Samson is saying all 30 men had sex with his wife is preposterous. One would be enough, don't you think? I believe Samson suspects his friend who he ended up giving her to. And just because Samson suspects adultery doesn't mean she actually committed adultery. It could be that no one had sex with his wife. Even if one of the men had sex with her, how could we be sure it wasn't rape?

When the thirty men had expounded his first riddle, Sampson responded with yet another riddle; If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle.

A true riddle consists of a figurative and a literal description of an object in the form of a basic metaphor or allegory. It has two or more meanings. Riddles can be solved by verbal skill or through adaptive or versatile imagination.

allegory, a story or visual image with a second distinct meaning partially hidden behind its literal or visible meaning. The principal technique of allegory is personification, whereby abstract qualities are given human shape—as in public statues of Liberty or Justice. An allegory may be conceived as a metaphor that is extended into a structured system.

Allegory communicates its message by means of symbolic figures, actions or symbolic representation. Allegory is generally treated as a figure of rhetoric, but an allegory does not have to be expressed in language: it may be addressed to the eye, and is often found in realistic painting, sculpture or some other form of mimetic, or representative art.

The etymological meaning of the word is broader than the common use of the word. Though it is similar to other rhetorical comparisons, an allegory is sustained longer and more fully in its details than a metaphor, and appeals to imagination, while an analogy appeals to reason or logic. The fable or parable is a short allegory with one definite moral.

If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle.

Remember, a riddle has at least two meanings. In this riddle I believe there are actually three levels of meaning.

1)Literally plowing the ground with an ox to reveal the hidden parts of the ground.
2)Figuratively employing methods of uncovering Samson's secret from his wife. The idea of revealing secret things or hidden parts does have the feel of sexual immorality.
3)Although given in language rather than an image, this analogy is also addressed to the eye and can be pictured by the imagination. The physical form of a plowman behind the plow and...well, hopefully we all get the idea.

I can't foresee any circumstance that would compel me to respond to this thread again, short of being labeled as a harlot. No... not even then. I believe custer will have to play out the rest of this (whatever "this" is) by herself or maybe she'll find someone to take George's and my spots.