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Old 04-05-2009, 05:47 PM
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George George is offline
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Default Re: "Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? & James, Chapter 2: Is Faith all it takes? "

Mind & Body’s Thread & Posts concerning - Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell?:
{bold & underlines in M&B’s Threads and Posts are mine – G.A.}

Aloha Mind & Body,

I have listed your Thread and all of your Posts concerning your question, and my comments follow each Post.

Mind & Body’s THREAD:
#1 - Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? {03-19-2009, 03:23 PM}
Hi, I am new here, but, since most everyone here is a Protestant who disagrees with Catholicism, I want a definitive answer, with Biblical evidence. I am a Baptist myself, but I am not convinced that Roman Catholics are damned. If anyone here thinks that they are, then will you please tell me why? Because Chick and the like say that they are.
First of all - your statement: “since most everyone here is a Protestant who disagrees with Catholicism” - demonstrates a Roman Catholic understanding of Christianity, and does not reflect reality (here on the Forum), nor does it reflect the facts of history.

Most of the people on the Forum are NOTProtestants” – most of us come from an “Independent” background {Baptists (all Kinds); Brethren (Plymouth, Grace, etc.); Independent Bible churches ” (all Kinds); “Community” churches (all “flavors”); "Calvary" (all Kinds); “Evangelical” (all flavors); Pentecostal (a few); and various other churches that have NOTHING to do with the Reformation or the “Protestant” churches (Lutheran; Reformed; Presbyterian; Methodist; Anglican; Episcopalian; and the numerous “Off-shoots” from them – Congregational; United Church of Christ; etc.).

It is a Roman Catholic “concept” to consider ALL so-called “Christian” Churches as being “Protestant”, but the facts of history say otherwise. Read: Foxe’s Book of Martyrs (Reformed) or one, or several Church History Books: Schaffs (Episcopalian) - 8 Volumes; LaTourette’s (Baptist)– 12 Volumes; Eardmanns (Various Authors) – about 12 Volumes; Cunningham’s (Presbyterian) 2 Volumes; Ruckman’s (Baptist) – 2 Volumes; or you might even check out Cardinal John Henry Newman’s Church History (Anglican, converted to Roman Catholicism).

Now I am NOT recommending these men, or their writings, what I am claiming is that the “FACTS” about the history of Christianity from the time of Paul up to the present can be found in many “church histories” – IF a reader has the discernment to weed out the personal “bias” of the writer. And the “FACTS” about the history of God’s church is that there have always been small groups of believers (branded “schismatics” by Roman Catholics and later by Protestants) down through the centuries, which were first persecuted by the Roman government; and later by the Roman Catholic Church; and later by the Protestant churches also!

If you “think” that “most everyone here is a Protestant”, you are mistaken, and the reason for your error is because of your Roman Catholic training, upbringing, and education. The history of the church of God NEVER was – First the Apostolic Church; and then the Catholic Church; and then the division between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox; and then the “Protestant” Churches; and that’s ALL! All during the time that the “Kingdom Builders” (Roman Catholic; Eastern Orthodox; and Protestant) were trying to establish God’s “Kingdom” on earth (through fear, intimidation, coercion, and force) there has always been small groups of believers who refused to accept the “Kingdom Builders” doctrines and more often than not, suffered sever persecution for their beliefs – even death.

You had a peculiar way of asking for a “a definitive answer” to a question, by first putting forward your own belief – “but I am not convinced that Roman Catholics are damned” first, and then posing the question. {???} “If anyone here thinks that they are, then will you please tell me why? Because Chick and the like say that they are.” Why do people do this? WHY didn’t you just put forward your question, without your own assertions, if you are sincerely interested in what other people believe?

Many of the answers given by the brethren gave you “a definitive answer” to your question, and that is we are NOT in a position to condemn ALL Roman Catholics to Hell, since we don’t know ANY OF THEIR HEARTS – ONLY GOD KNOWS PEOPLE’S HEARTS! [1 Kings 8:39; 2 Chronicles 6:30; Luke 16:15; Acts 1:24; 1John 3:20] And other than that – there is NOdefinitive answer” to your question! As a matter of fact, your question is a “non sequitur” (as the “scholars” and “educators” would say).

Non sequitur Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.:

1. Logic. an inference or a conclusion that does not follow from the premises
2.a statement containing an illogical conclusion
Non sequitur
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.:
  • An inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence.
  • A statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it.
non sequitur
The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

A thought that does not logically follow what has just been said: “We had been discussing plumbing, so her remark about astrology was a real non sequitur.” Non sequitur is Latin for “It does not follow.”
Non sequitur
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.:

An inference which does not follow from the premises.
Non sequitur
WordNet® 3.0 @ 2006 by Princeton University.

1. a reply that has no relevance to what preceded it
2. (logic) a conclusion that does not follow from the premises
It is very instructive (to me at least) that educated Christians often ask inconsequential and immaterial questions that, on the surface, may appear to be “reasonable”; but when examined carefully, turn out to be “loaded” with difficulty, ambiguity, uncertainty, and dubiousness.

Mind & Body’s POST:
#10 - Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? {03-20-2009, 01:36 PM}
I nowhere said that people were saved by Church attendance or denomination or anything other than belief, but I was wondering if anyone here perscribed to the notion that Catholics worship a non-Scriptural Christ, or perhaps that some did not worship Him at all, which would damn them to Hell.
Again your question is a “non sequitur” because (again) we do NOT know ALL Catholics’ hearts, so we don’t have any idea, which of them (if any) have received the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour! However, if you are asking about official Roman Catholic Church doctrine – the “Christ” of Roman Catholic Church doctrine is unable to “save them (Roman Catholics) to the uttermost”, and so it is clear that the “Christ” that the Roman Catholic Church preaches is NOT THE “CHRIST” of the Holy Scriptures.

Mind & Body’s POST:
#17 - Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? {03-22-2009, 04:17 PM}
What I meant was, did some here think that Catholics aren't getting to "The Real McCoy", as it were, they are not expressing belief in the Real Christ, only the angry, co-mediatrix, Second-to-Mary type of Jesus that Catholics believe in? because that, I thought, was what damned Catholics to Hell. I really started to have my doubts in Catholicism when my friend Benjamin's mother, a devout Catholic that never misses Mass, suggested in a short conversation that God might be Female. She said of the Bible, which clearly teaches otherwise, that "the opinions of the writers got mixed up in the writings." I really was so flabbergasted that I had then nothing to say to her, but I can tell you that I am almost sure that she is not Born-Again.
Once Again your question is a “non sequitur” because (once again) we do NOT know ALL Catholics’ hearts! It doesn’t really matter WHAT we “THINK”, the fact is we have no idea which Catholics (if any) have believed the Gospel (that Paul preached – 1Corinthians 15:1-4) and have received the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour.

It’s always a dangerous thing for Christians to try to determine (judge) WHO is saved, and WHO is NOT. The only thing we can say with certainty is, in order for a person to be genuinely saved – they MUST BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus Christ as presented in the Holy Scriptures (and NOT some church’s representation of Him), and they MUST individually (personally) RECEIVE Him as their Saviour, in order to become a son of God.

Mind & Body’s POST:
#29 - Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? {03-23-2009, 09:22 PM}
I just don't understand why most Catholics think that their religion is the only way to heaven. Since the Vatican II Council, Protestants are no longer to be called "heretics", but instead "separated brethren". But hyper-Catholic Web sites like still calls Protestants heretics and says that they are damned to hell. It is just not in the Whore's best intrest to be so divisive...
It’s quite simple really - most “religions” (Hinduism, Buddhism, Mohammedism – “Islam”, etc.) believe that “their way” is the “ONLY WAY”. The same goes for many “Christian” Denominations and Sects. As a side note, today most secular HUMANISTS (Humanism is a religion/philosophy) believe exactly the SAME {their "way" ("psychiatry" & "psychology") is the "ONLY WAY"} as most “religionists”! Today’s Humanists are as “bigoted”, close-minded, and “prejudiced” as the persecuting Roman Catholic Priests of the 12th and 13th Centuries!

It is always in the “best interest” of any False Religion to present as many “faces” as they can, in order to “mask” their true beliefs or doctrines; in order to “deceive the hearts of the simple”! [Romans 16:18] {Did you notice that the Scriptures didn’t say in order to: deceive the (MINDS) of the simple – the Scriptures said to “deceive the HEARTS of the simple”. We BELIEVE with our HEARTNOT our MIND! Christian’s failure to discern between the differences between the HEART, the MIND, and the CONSCIENCE has led to more false teaching and doctrine than you or I will ever know.

Mind & Body’s POST:
#36 - Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? {03-25-2009, 03:18 PM}
No one suggested that, Bro. Luke.
Mind & Body’s POST:
#52 - Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? {04-04-2009, 09:15 PM}
[Luke 13:3: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.]

But what is Biblical repentance, anyway? I haven't gotten a definitive answer.
In reading you’re preceding Thread & Posts – You never asked a “definitive question” in regards to “Biblical repentance”, and so it is impossible to “answer” a “question” that was never asked!

We will now move on to your (M&B’s) second Thread and subsequent Post:

Mind & Body’s Thread & Posts concerning - James, Chapter 2: Is Faith all it takes?:

Mind & Body’s THREAD:
James, Chapter 2: Is Faith all it takes? {03-25-2009, 10:52 AM}
Can Salvation by Faith Alone, a Protestant principle, be reconciled with the second chapter of James' Epistle? he claims that faith without works is dead.”
For your information – Salvation by Faith Alone” is NOT CONFINED to “a Protestant principle! {Another "remnant teaching" from your Roman Catholic past} “Salvation by Faith Alone” is a “Scriptural Principal”! Paul taught Salvation by Faith Alone” 1,400 years before God showed the Scriptural principal to Martin Luther [Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:38]. There are over 10 times the number of Scriptures supporting “Salvation by Faith Alone” as there are that say “works” are involved (see the list of Scriptures – pro & con on my web site). In order to “reconcile” the Book of James; or Hebrews; or Matthew with the teachings and doctrines of the Apostle Paul a Christian must study the Bible [2Timothy 2:15] and learn to “rightly divide the word of truth”.

Spiritual discernment, understanding, and wisdom are something that CANNOT be taught or LEARNED in SCHOOL. Things (Spiritual Issues i.e. doctrine) that are spiritually “discerned” are taught by the Holy Spirit and are learned by those Christians who have “a love of the truth” [2Thessalonians 2:10] and who sincerely seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit in spiritual matters [1Corinthians 2:1-16].

You said that James: "claims that faith without works is dead.” James isn’t “claiming” anything. James is writing under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and as such, he makes NO "CLAIMS" – He’s stating a FACT! What students of the Holy Bible have to discern is - WHO is James WRITING to; and WHO do these verses APPLY to? One of the first basic principles in Bible study is “rightly dividing the word of truth” [2 Timothy 2:15]

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” [2 Timothy 3:16] For Bible believers: ALL Scripture is “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”. ALL Scripture is written FOR us to study, BUT ALL scripture is NOT written TO us! ALL Scripture has been written FOR US, but NOT ALL Scripture APPLIES to the Christian.

Until a Christian understands the BASIC PRINCIPALS of “rightly dividing the word of truth”, they can make very little “spiritual sense” of Scripture and will either “think” that ALL Scripture must be “HARMONIZED” or “RECONCILED”; and what needs to be done is to “RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth” according to the principles recorded in the Holy Bible:

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The Bible is NOT written like a “Textbook”, it is written more like a “Puzzle”; and the KEYS to unlocking that “Puzzle” are - “rightly dividing the word of truth” {For instance discerning the DIFFERENCE between the JEW (Israel), the GENTILE (the world), and the CHURCH (born again sons of God)}; and “spiritual guidance” from the HOLY SPIRIT. That is WHY all of the “Schooling” and “Education” in the world CANNOT teach “spiritual things” – which are “spiritually discerned” [1Corinthians 2:1-16].

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Mind & Body’s POST:
James, Chapter 2: Is Faith all it takes? {03-25-2009, 03:21 PM}
Calm down, potw. No-one is saying that salvation is of works; I'm just talking about the implications of James 2 on faith-alone salvation. It is more a Bible-study issue than a doctrinal issue.”
Your last Post gives rise to many questions (about you - why are today's Christians sooo "touchy" and ""sensitive"?): First, because of your inane and juvenile “response” to brother Steve Monahan's (POTW) Post #2 <> Your Thread; and second (and more importantly) because you completely “IGNOREDeverything that he said.

There are NO “implications” in James Chapter 2. James is writing to “the TWELVE TRIBES which are scattered abroad”:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
The Book of James is NOT ADDRESSED to the church or to a Christian, and as such, although we can learn from it, doctrinally it does NOT APPLY to the church or a Christian.

There are NO “implications” in James Chapter 2, except in the minds of those people that “think” that there is a “possible contradiction” in the Holy Bible. Is that the “IMPLICATION” that you were hinting at? If it is, then POTW had every good reason to warn you that: “If you are here to push works based salvation through 1 verse in James, I think you are in the wrong place.” I will add to that warning – If you are here to “imply” that a works based salvation is “possible”, or that there is a “contradiction” in the Holy Bible “you are in the wrong place.

The vast majority of the brethren on this Forum believe that our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, shed His precious Blood, and died for our sins, and rose again the third day; and that His gift of Salvation became our possession the moment we believed IN Him (the Gospel) and received Him as our Saviour – Plus Nothing!

This “issue” is more than just a “Bible-study” issue”, as you have claimed. It is a basic doctrinal issue that is at the core and center of our faith! To relegate it to just a “Bible-study” issue”, that we can discuss the “implications” thereof, or that can be “reconciled” by human reason or thought, denigrates the very FOUNDATION of our FAITH; and turns one of the central doctrines of the Bible into a “philosophical” question, that can be discussed (with an “open mind”), as if many of us don’t hold strong Biblical convictions concerning the issue.

Over the past year (since this Forum was first created) we have had many kooks, crazies, and crackpots join the Forum, and although ALL of them have had a different “Hobby Horse” that they want us to ride, they ALL have ONE THING IN COMMON – and that is, they ALL QUESTION the Holy words of God and try to cast doubt on them. “Yea, hath God said”?

Your question: Do Roman Catholics Go To Hell? Is a non sequitur, and as such, there was NO “profit” or “edification” [Romans 14:19; 1Corinthians 10:23; 1Thessalonians 5:11] in answering it, since it was illogical.

Your question: James, Chapter 2: Is Faith all it takes? Is NOT a non sequitur, it is the kind of question that genders strife, division, and confusion. It is obvious, from the nature of your two questions, that you have not learned to “rightly divide the word of truth” [2 Timothy 2:15], for if you knew how to “rightly divide” you wouldn’t ask questions that a even a novice student of the Bible would already know; so the question arises WHY are you here, and WHAT are your intentions?

If you are here for the fellowship and to edify and be edified, you are certainly welcome, but on the other hand, if you are here to agitate and argue, or to stir up contention and cause trouble – be advised, some of us will not stand by idly and accept comments that are not true or which gender strife.

There’s a reason why POTW and I feel a bit “uneasy” about you (a “red flag” is up); only time will tell whether our “uneasiness” was mistaken or whether you are just one more trouble-maker looking for a “platform” to spread disinformation.

Last edited by George; 04-05-2009 at 06:09 PM.