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Old 07-08-2009, 08:30 AM
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Diligent Diligent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord View Post
Thank you for chiming in, could you please do me a favor then and look at my arguments of scripture that I posted to Brother Luke and Brother Forest back a few, and tell me how that relates to your experience. I didn't use any of the quotes you mentioned, as I am trying not to 'pigeon hole' myself as a Calvinist, but rather some of what Calvin preached, makes perfect sense to me based on my thoughts responding to Brother Luke and what I see and understand in scripture.
I simply wanted to share my own experience on this topic. In your post 120, you said something that caused me to remember how I originally bought into Calvinism:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord
When I read Paul's statement Ro*8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro*8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Since the verse you quote specifically says that the predestination is for those whom God forknew "to be conformed to the image of his Son," not to believe, I thought that perhaps you did what I did and let someone else tell you that predestination means God decided you would believe. Romans 8 was one of the passages I recall reading and then deciding that Calvin must have had it right -- because I was letting someone else define predestination for me. That's why I thought it related in some part to your own experience.

Anyway, we can move on, as my past experience is really only anecdotal.

I looked over your list of verses to Forrest. I wish I had time to respond to each one, as I have seen the same list many, many times. I will respond to a few of them:

You said:

Quote:
1. The belief that God predestined people for salvation before the beginning of time. God’s election is not conditioned by anything in man, good or evil, foreseen or present, but upon God’s sovereign choice.
Then you quoted Ro 3:10-18; Jer 13:23; Tit 3:3; Joh 6:44, 65, 37 -- none of which say anything about the ability of man to believe the Gospel. This stems from the fundamental error of Calvinism in equating works with and in defining belief as a fruit of the Spirit that can only come after salvation. I am not arguing that in my unsaved state that I could "come to" God. I couldn't. He came to me. I could not do anything to please God nor would I have sought to in my unsaved state. But I could believe. God did the work -- I simply believed. Belief is not a work.

As I pointed out before:
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Note that Paul says "ye believed." That's us. Not God. Belief is not a work and it is something that we did.

You then said:

Quote:
2. The Bible clearly teaches that election is not conditioned on man.
One of the verses you quote is Romans 9:10-13, which has nothing to do with salvation, from a passage talking about the national selection of Israel. I do not have time to go into this as deeply as I'd like.

Then you quote this verse:
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Which is odd, since neither you nor I can claim the promise "whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you," and more interestingly, Judas was among those that Jesus said he chose. Why not quote this verse too:
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
What business does anyone have saying that John 15:16 describes how we are saved? It doesn't.

This is how proof-texting in Calvinism works. They find verses that use words like "elect" "choose" and "predestinate" and then say that means we can't believe the Gospel without God making us believe it.

You say: "God’s election is not conditioned by anything in man." To that I say Amen -- his election is in Christ. But your point is that there is no "condition" on our salvation. That's simply not true:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
There's your "condition." And there's that word again: believe.

You also say:

Quote:
5. Salvation is by grace alone and for God’s glory alone. If people are elect based on their own choice, then merit is gained through the work of the individual (i.e., their faith).
Which, again, is a problem with the way Calvinism has defined belief as a work, contrary to how the Bible clearly defines belief as not a work (Romans 4:5). My belief does not merit me anything. God's work is what saves me. The work of Christ; his faith, is imputed to me. It is not of me. I have no works at all to boast over in my salvation, save the works of Christ!