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Old 12-05-2008, 09:38 PM
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bibleprotector bibleprotector is offline
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What this Bible translator was explaining is "never, never" is the "expression" being conveyed in all three translations: Greek - "ma genomia", English - "God forbid", and Spanish - "in ninguna manera". This is an idiomatic expression.
This implies that the sense as rendered in the KJB as it stands, i.e. “God forbid” is subject to change > not perfect > wrong. “God forbid” does not exactly mean “never, never”. They are different words with different meanings. If we have perfect words in English, i.e. “God forbid”, then the words “never, never” are imperfect renderings of the Word of God. They might be a possible translation, but it is not a perfect translation. On the level of total perfection, we have to say “God forbid” is exactly right. Therefore, any variations to “God forbid” in English are just going the wrong way, and to have those kinds of translations in other languages shows that they are always inferior to the KJB. That is why people from other lands should continue learning English.

And yes the KJV is perfect. And so if another translation is to render this expression perfectly they must do the same thing the KJV translators did when dealing with this idiomatic expression.
If the KJB is perfect, how could we think that the same perfection could exist somewhere else (except in heaven?) By perfect we mean:

a. exact wording/text/version (this is not found in any single extant edition of even the originals)

b. exact sense of the inspired original (this is not found in any translation in complete perfection, except the KJB)

They must translate the idiom using the strongest expression possible in the receptor language that conveys the idiomatic expression of the source language.
Near enough may be sufficient, but it is not EXACT. It is better for people to have access to the EXACT words and meanings as presented in the KJB, where there is absolute certainty. Other translations do not match up to this high standard, though many have been acceptable and useful.

I will give an example of the perfection of the KJB which comes down to its very presentation. This, I assume, would be totally absent from other translations. We note in the English Bible that the word “vail” is used for a covering cloth or curtain. However, we also find the word “veil” is used. “Veil” is always used meaning that the hidden thing is revealed or made known. (Not to be confused with a vail being taken from someone’s heart so that they understood something.) Do other translations differ or distinguish between “vail” and “veil” in their places?

A Missionary's job is not to promote their "culteral foundation" or teach English. His job is to preach the Gospel and teach the word of God.
If the exact form of the Word of God is in English and the people learn English, then the missionary can be certain that he is teaching people exactly what the highest advances of Christians in English-speaking countries believe. Moreover, since we are told to teach nations, baptise nations, and make them observe the exact words of God according to Matthew 28:19, 20, then to bring in the existing foundations of Christian national culture, and more importantly, to give them the exact Word of God in English cannot be wrong.

And if a person who is proud of his culture, race, and language refuses to be Americanized and Anglicized, the only way you are going to reach them is through their language and in their culture (in so far as that culture is not sinful or paganistic).
Existing national cultures being Christianised is proper. Teaching English or bringing in elements from Anglophone cultures is not wrong. But if people are against English or the Gospel because they are “proud of his culture, race, and language”... pride is a sin, and where patriotism or any other thing gets in the way of the Gospel, it is wrong. (It is just as wrong to enforce wrong unbiblical things onto cultures because they are from “civilised nations”, etc.) Racism is wrong too.

I believe that any people can have a Bible just as accurate and good as the KJB if that translation has the same basis (the Received Texts) as the KJV and every word in that translation is not in conflict with the words in the KJV. Newsflash - Jesus was not an Englishman.
The basis for the Bible today is not by going back to “the Received Texts” if that means Hebrew and Greek. Why? 1. There is no settled existing text/version in those languages. 2. There is no certain sense ascribed to each word or perfect method of translating 100%. (Waite even says that no translation brings over 100%, which is a wrong idea on several grounds, first, that God is able to providentially get all His Word over, otherwise people cannot be saved, secondly, that English specifically has been prepared and had the full outworking to get the exact meanings present today in English.)

Even slight variations in the sense in good translations as when compared to the KJB are on the final level in conflict with the KJB. Historically they do not conflict with God's will, because of the principle of sufficient truth. But finally, once we go to the very jot and tittle, the very sense of the meaning of each word, the very structure of the sentence, etc. etc. we find that only the KJB is final authority, not the body of many versions/translations/editions of the original languages. That is to say, that the KJB supersedes and is successionary to them all, or “supersuccessionary”, therefore, why keep on making usurpers when we have the true king?

You are basing your position upon an assumption. ... that does not prove that the KJV is the END of God's promise to preserve His words. God gave us the KJV and we can now use the KJV as the standard to produce His pure words into other language.
Biblical reasoning shows there is an end of God’s promise as far as text and translation, there is NOT and end as far as the continual preservation of this particular Bible. God gave us the KJB, and we now use the KJB as the standard so that other nations and men of other languages may come to it to find His pure words. Yes the Scripture is pure, and purity may be found in other languages. But complete, seven-times, linguistic purity is only in the KJB today. (Revelation 14:6 shows one Gospel going to all languages, and Revelation 10 one book [KJB and KJB-based preaching]. This of course is the ultimate fulfilment of the prophecies, as it has been good to translate to other languages.)

That is ridiculous to use these verses as some sort of argument against translating God's words into other languages.
No, God was for translating to other languages. He is still using them today. But the trend and the manifest providence of God is to go toward one language. It is the Church where Babel is reversed, and where the possibility of Babel is unperverted, i.e. that all things are possible to him that believeth.

Isa. 28:11 is not a reference to anybody learning English.
Since the Jews are to hear the truth in another tongue, which means not Hebrew, and since the Jews know English ... the KJB must be for all, including the Jews. (When did the Greek preaching of the NT convert the Jews? It was only a "former rain" blessing which had modest [by today's Laodicean standards, "impossibly wonderful"] results.)

Zeph. 3:9 is a Millineal context that has no bearing upon Missionary work or the work of Bible translating today.
Since the Jews are to be turned to another language so that they may call upon God, are we to think that the conversion of Israel is only AFTER the Millennium begins? No, they are to believe before the return of Christ, and if you look at Romans 11:25, 26a, it says, “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved” ... That is not in the Millennium. The salvation of the Jews must accelerate now, while the Church is yet here. Therefore, it is the highest aim of missionary activity to get the Gospel to all the Gentiles, and to the Jews. Who is going to preach to the Jews? It has to be the people of God doing this missionary work. Zeph. 3:9's context is pre-Millennial.

God preserved for us His words in Greek, Hebrew, English, and many other languages
Actually, God preserved His Words in Hebrew and Greek for 1611 and to today so that they may now, that is to say, the knowledge of His words in those languages, may diminish. It is obvious that knowledge in Hebrew and Greek have diminished substantially in the last 100 years. How can we expect today’s translators to even come close to the KJB, as much as they might be KJB users and supporters? That is why it is better to teach the people English than to try and get second-rate Bible translations to them. They might not be “bad”, but they are just not the best. At present foreign Bible continue to be used, sure, but if we change our focus and aim now, we are sowing for a better future and the long term excellence for the whole Church.

I would love to see you go to some of the backwards tribes in New Guinea ... and other places in this world and see you try to teach these people English so that they can read the KJB and be saved.
You seem to have made up your mind that this endeavour would fail. I urge you not to accept Satanic thoughts that doubts that the Gospel can spread. I would to God that missionaries had much more success than what they have had. And that each of us grows to be many times greater Christians.

What I am saying is nothing short of a Christian Restitution. What we need is strong and proper conversions. Having the KJB as foundation to national and a proper world-wide evangelistic and teaching movement has to be the best thing. Don’t say it is “unrealistic”. Just look at how different Europe was after Luther! If the Word of God does not have power, then why even bother preach?

That is why God will call someone else to minister to them instead of you because while you would be wasting your time trying to minister in English to a non-english speaking people, souls are dying and going to hell, and the most efficient way to reach these people is in their language.
Past and short term outworkings are quite fine for foreign preaching and teaching. Unless there is a Christianity infused with divine mandate on a solid Bible as foundation, we will see the same (sad to say) lack and failure in the West as much as in the little results of missionary activity.

“If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?” (Psalm 11:3).

“And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.” (Isaiah 58:12).

The KJB is foundation.

Ask ANY God-called Missionary that ever lived on this planet.
Why did David Livingston teach the brightest and best Christians in Africa English? Why did missions in Australia teach Aboriginals English? Surely this is a sign of the providence of God. There has been the day of going to other languages, now is the day of other languages coming to the Biblical English.

We don’t have to wait for the Millennium for Christian success, if you interpret Scripture in line with the symbols of the Church age of grace:

“And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.” (Micah 4:2).

Last edited by bibleprotector; 12-05-2008 at 09:49 PM.