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AJ, How do you reconcile Rev 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" ? cf. Rev 20:10-15, Is 34:1 "Saved" loses its meaning when there is nothing to be saved from. As I said, separation from God would please many

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There was a TV documentary of a Bishop (Should of have taken notes) who wrestled with the all saved concept.

The problem he encountered was that if he wrote the churches statement on salvation as “all saved”, he would in fact be, as you said “loses its meaning when there is nothing to be saved from”.

He wrestled with it without sleep for 2 or 3 days until he came to a conclution.

He, understood the concept of universal salvation, but feared the people wouldn’t, so he wrote the churches statement to reflect a fear of hell.

He understood that hell would be a driving force, and I will agree that it is.

But greater force would it be if we could come to God acknowledging the gift of life, being appreciative of it, in the face of a hellish world environment.

Our convictions to live right would be stronger than with the fear of hell looming over us.

Now as for: Rev. 14:11. REV 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Let’s go back a few verses to establish a spiritual picture of what is going on.

REV 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
“That great city” these are coded words depicting how Jesus has fallen. Looking at the second quarter of the 24 hour day of His crucifixion being the time frame, 12 midnight to 6 am in the morning, Jesus a perfect and upright man at the Garden takes on the sins of the world on His shoulders, thus “fallen”. Or say taking the fall for us.
Jesus has made us drink of His sufferings, by joining Him. 1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
REV 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,REV 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Here we have again a spiritual picture depicting the elements involved the day of His crucifixion.
To the Jewish believer of His day, Jesus was blasphemer, a breaker of Sabbaths and a mingle-er with sinners, thus in a way a beast, that should not be worshipped.

We are looking at the third quarter of the crucifixion day where Jesus is taken into judgment by (torment by fire=Gods word=prophecies) and by brimstone. (Breath of the Lord or Holy Spirit)

At the same time Jesus is sitting in judgment of His tormentors, for in His love for them and all mankind, His judgment is with love and forgiveness, and takes on the costs of the cross for us.

And now your verse: REV 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Smoke is representative of sins on that day of His crucifixion, of which they, the crucifiers have no rest, for in serving they are worshiping, and they are sealed in their foreheads not to see Jesus in order for Jesus to be offered up by them.

In their offering up of Jesus, they are held sinless, for that was a form of their worship.

The spiritual picture is what needs be seen in all the descriptive wordings in the bible.

As for: “Hell is hardly mankind’s' way of controlling the masses. Folks are oblivious to it. Would that the preacher could make the masses feel the flames of Hell, there would be revival! Turn to the Lord in fear, and grow in Him in love.”

Agreed, some people need a fire placed in the right areas in order to bring them to Christ, but much of it is short lived, for fear is the motivator rather than love.

A person coming to Christ with love, will sincerely “want” to live right out of shear appreciation.

My view, of course.

Peace>>>AJ