[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

Luke 11:38
And when the Pharisee saw it,
he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner.

Mark 7:4
And when they come from the market,
except they wash, they eat not.
And many other things there be,
which they have received to hold,
as the washing of cups,
and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

Mark 7:8
For laying aside the commandment of God,
ye hold the tradition of men,
as the washing of pots and cups:
and many other such like things ye do.

Originally Posted by sophronismos;

The Baptist scholar John Gill shows by quotations from rabbinic sources that these Jewish washings were done by immersion, not by pouring.

First, lets show what John Gill says about the Greek word.


http://www.vor.org/rbdisk/ivimey/html/gill_bap.htm
The author of the dialogue under consideration affirms that there is not one single lexicographer or critic upon the Greek language, he has ever seen, but what agrees, that though the word baptizo sometimes signifies to dip, yet it also naturally signifies to wash; and that washing, in any mode whatsoever, is the native signification of the word baptismos; that the words baptize and baptism, (as used in the new testament) do not, from their signification, make dipping or plunging the necessary mode of administering the ordinance.

John Gill properly argues that it is wrong to say that baptizo cannot be immersion, as I pointed out is argued by some. Gill points out that baptizo can be any type of dipping, washing or immersion.

This would tend to make the complex Rabbinic discussions about the verses above a bit on the moot side. A nice intellectual and historical exercise about the full context of the Liddell and Scott verses. However please note e.g. Gill does not indicate what you claim in the page I reference. John Gill only says that there would be plunging or dipping, using Beza as one source, in Mark 7:4, not necessarily immersion.

The main point is that John Gill has already supports the wide usage view of baptizo that demolishes the baptizo=immersion view of the critics of the word baptism in the English Bibles, including the King James Bible.

Also I had earlier in the thread given a more complete list of verses for consideration in addtional contexts.

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am
tormented in this flame.

John 13:26
Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it.
And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:
and his name is called The Word of God.

Originally Posted by sophronismos

since you KJVO extremists ...want to be the champion of pouring and baby baptism, you relinquish all your credibility.

Hmmm .. you are very incautious in speech.. sophomoric.

Perhaps you have not read the thread, where I shared more than once that sound New Testament exegesis impels immersion (submersion) and emersion as essential aspects of baptism.

After you reread the thread, proper would be an apology to the forum, lest you be seen as a false accuser before God and man.

Shalom,
Steven Avery