[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

Originally Posted by freesundayschoollessons

Neither a straight reading nor a "spiritual understanding" of the KJV will let anyone come to the conclusion that "baptism" is to be by immersion only.

The simplest example that contradicts this is Phillip and the Ethiopian. There was no search for a canteen or water bottle, but when a body of water was sited, then the Ethiopian eunuch asked in Acts 8 :

"See, here is water;
what doth hinder me to be baptized?"

This is reinforced by what follows:

"they went down both into the water,
both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
And when they were come up out of the water"

This is very clear, and completely in harmony with the Romans 6 and Colossians 2 discussion of being buried in Jesus, as well as John baptizing where there was "much water". It is difficult to find a more solidly based doctrine, scripturally, than immersion as an element of baptism, although perhaps an ultra-dispensationalism might try to limit the applications.

Originally Posted by freesundayschoollessons

Only the definition of the Greek term will help you come to that conclusion.

Really ? Have you viewed even all the NT uses, much less yet all the uses of the term in classical Greek ?

Originally Posted by freesundayschoollessons

I also know that in 1611, the translators could not use the term "immersion" for obvious religious implications.

There are many weaknesses with the term 'immersion'. e.g. Many folks are immersed daily without undergoing Christian baptism. That is one example of why baptism had long been in English translations. Incidentally, the Anglicans of that time were apparently largely immersionists.

Originally Posted by freesundayschoollessons

My KJVOnly professors of the past made a huge deal out of "baptism" by immersion alone and "church" as assembly, but they always went back to the Greek to support their conclusions.

Perhaps there were a bit more enamored with seminary shenanigans than the simple beauty and majesty, truth and perfection of the Bible text.

Originally Posted by freesundayschoollessons

That being said, I have wondered why it is impossible to find much pure KJVOnly literature on the subject of the use of these terms.

I've seen lots of good material. Here are some notes I have on the subject from a discussion on another forum.

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There is a lot of irony in this discussion, since "Baptists" are known
as the full immersion people, and John the Baptist is so named for his baptisms
in the Jordan River :-) That is why it is especially ironic when Baptists raise
an objection against the word "baptism" in the NT !

In the article below and notes below, you will see that the word baptism

a) is the best translation of the Greek,

b) had been in the English language for hundreds of years

c) was not a new transliteration.

d) every previous English Bible used "baptism" and "to baptize" or their contemporary equivalents

e) Baptist (full immersion) confessions of faith of that time ... all employ baptism.

f) Most Anglican practice in that era.."required immersion for the Church"

g) The KJB preface specifically states the usage of "baptism" against the (Puritan) "washing" -- clearly to support immersion as a translational aspect of the Greek

Wow.

The NT does of course teach baptism as full immersion, however lets not falsely accuse our English Bible in order to try to make our harmony "easier" (at the cost of creating error in the Bible.)

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God..." (2 Timothy 3:16)

"Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." (Psalm 12:7)

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http://www.tbaptist.com/aab/baptisminkjv.htm

"BAPTISM" In The King James Version
By Paul Kirkpatrick
Compelling Proof That "Baptism" Is Translated Correctly In The King JamesBible

The Problem Stated
In the course of examining the question as to why some groups use modes other than immersion for their baptism, one will occasionally come across the charge that is leveled by some people, Baptists in particular, that one reason for the existence of these variations in the mode of baptism is that the English word "baptism" and its cognate verb form "to baptize," which are found in the King James Version of the Bible, are extremely vague in their meanings.

(snip)

(please read from web site)
================================================

There is one additional point to mention.

While contextually the Greek word baptizo in the NT is usually referring to immersion,
that is not always the case -- it is simply not a necessary part of the Greek word baptizo.

Pleae note these examples.

Luke 11:38
And when the Pharisee saw it,
he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner.

Mark 7:4
And when they come from the market,
except they wash, they eat not.
And many other things there be,
which they have received to hold,
as the washing of cups,
and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

Mark 7:8
For laying aside the commandment of God,
ye hold the tradition of men,
as the washing of pots and cups:
and many other such like things ye do.

Even these examples are from the same root.

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am
tormented in this flame.

John 13:26
Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it.
And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:
and his name is called The Word of God.

So, if you insist on translating baptizo as "immersion" you make gibberish and
error of these verses, and your Bible is simple not the inerrant Word of God.

================================================== ==========
Note also the related b-greek discussion -- you will see the wide range of meaning, definitely including, but not limited to, immersion.

Terry Pruitt
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b...er/023627.html
Semantic Range of BAPTIZW/BAPTISMA
Check out word usages in these scripture references Mark 7:4 Luke 11:39 Hebrews 9:10. These are passages which are often translated without the english word "baptism". There is no special method prescribed for washing dishes in Mark passage. :-)

Hebrews 9:10
Which stood only in meats and drinks,
and divers washings,
and carnal ordinances,
imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Heflin Jones
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b...er/023614.html
As for the 'watery' i.e. literal meaning I decided on my own gloss to cover
almost all cases: "to get very wet" :-)

Heflin Jones gives a fuller lexicon treatment, showing the wide range of the Greek word

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b...er/023637.html
Semantic Range of BAPTIZW/BAPTISMA

The water baptism of the NT is contextually shown again and again to be immersion, (e.g Gospel, Acts and Romans) however, we should not mistranslate words to match our doctrinal views, nor should we weaken the spiritual aspect of baptism to simply immersion (an unbeliever can immerse, only a believer is baptised).

================================================== ===========

Hope this helps

Shalom,
Steven Avery