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Old 10-20-2008, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: Do we need Greek and Hebrew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlewis3348 View Post
"Okay, let's just get this straight. You believe that the KJV translators were inspired and actually had the ability to correct the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts they translated from (at least this is what Peter Ruckman believes and from what I can tell you are ardent supporters of him and his doctrine). I believe, on the other hand, that while the KJV translators did an excellent job, to say that they could actually correct the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts is akin to saying what the pope says is the infallible Word of God. I believe that if any of the translators were to hear that they would greatly disagree. That said, neither of us are going to be convinced that the other is right so I am just going to stop wasting my time with this foolishness. I have much better things to do with my time than to spend it aruing with people that are never going to admit wrong even when it is extremely obvious."

Aloha tlewis3348,

Here is the "original question" posted by brother Atlas:
Quote:
"Do we need Greek and Hebrew?

I'll say no, we never need Greek or Hebrew.

I hold to the belief that the KJV is the 100% perfect preserved Word of God, therefore I never need Greek or Hebrew.

If you believe that the KJV is God's preserved Word why do you even need Greek or Hebrew? "

Atlas
What I want to know is - WHO (on this Forum) are you addressing when you say:
Quote:
"You believe that the KJV translators were inspired and actually had the ability to correct the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts they translated from (at least this is what Peter Ruckman believes and from what I can tell you are ardent supporters of him and his doctrine)".
???
WHO is (or are) the "YOU"??? When dealing with an issue it is necessary to identify WHO you are addressing.

I have been on this Forum for nearly 8 months. And in all of that time I have yet to read any Bible believer on this Forum who "believes" what you say we "believe". If you are going to make accusations, you should at least cite the person (or persons) by name and their Post Number (quote them!) so that your accusation can be "verified". Be "specific" - "generalities" are meaningless when it comes to accusing the brethren [Matthew 18:16; 2 Corinthians 13:1] or elders [1 Timothy 5:1, 5:19].

Quote:
"You believe that the KJV translators were inspired and actually had the ability to correct the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts they translated from (at least this is what Peter Ruckman believes and from what I can tell you are ardent supporters of him and his doctrine)".
Tell me - where does Dr. Peter Ruckman state what you claim he believes? Hmmm? We need "documentation" - not unfounded "accusations". {Brother Ruckman is a fellow brother in Christ (and an elder) and as such, should be treated that way. Oh, and by the way, he did earn his doctorate from BJU.}

It never ceases to amaze me, the way that so many American Christians (especially from the "academic" community) have such malice, hatred, and contempt for a fellow Christian who has been of the forefront of defending God's word for nearly 60 years. [1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.] I wonder if there might be just a little bit of "jealousy" and "envy" involved? {Of Course - Only God knows our hearts [1Kings 8:39; 1Chronicles 28:9, 2 Chronicles 6:30]}

I have a suggestion for you: If you are going to engage in a meaningful debate - get your facts straight (cite sources). If you continue to insist in engaging in unsubstantiated hyperbole - don't expect many of us to answer your unfounded accusations.

Relegating all of us as "ardent supporters of him {brother Ruckman} and his doctrine", is a child's game, played around the playground of a "school". Dealing with facts (that can be substantiated) is another matter and is within the purview of men, I mean learned men - not a bunch of novices who are "puffed up" with knowledge and have so little "discernment", "understanding", and "wisdom" that they cannot see the difference between unfounded accusations and facts.

You have stated in previous Posts:
Quote:
"I believe that a much more logical thing to say is that God's Word has been preserved in the existing manuscripts of the Majority Text."
A review of your Posts reveal that you are not only unfamiliar with the issue of Which Bible; The Internal Evidence; Old Testament History of The Text; New Testament History of The Text; The History of the Transmission of The Text Of The Bible In The Church Age; The Manuscript Evidence; and a Comparison of Versions, but your "preference" for the so-called "Majority Text" (the Hodges-Farstad Text) reveals that you simply don't know what you are talking about. {There is no-such thing as a "Majority Text" since ALL of the manuscripts: GREEK (Papyrus, Uncials, Cursives, & Lectionaries); EARLY TRANSLATIONS (Latin, Syriac, Egyptian, Georgian, Armenian, Gothic, etc., etc.); and the CHURCH "FATHERS" haven't even been collated (there are 86,000 quotations of the church "fathers" in 16 portfolio volumes {handwritten} put together by Dean John William Burgon that have never even been published - yet!)

How can you have any confidence in a "Text" that has misrepresented itself as the "Majority Text", when the MAJORITY OF THE MANUSCRIPTS have yet to be collated? Hmmm? Clear thinking and a "sound" mind is what is needed in determining this issue - NOT blind adherence to some college professors' theories and private interpretation of the facts.

You have said:
Quote:
"Therefore, I believe that it can be helpful at times to go back to the Greek or Hebrew to discover different shades of meaning to the words used (many times the English does not have an exact word or phrase to fully describe the Greek or Hebrew word)."
WHICH "Hebrew" or "Greek"? There are several Hebrew "texts" out there - which do you "prefer"? And what about "The Greek"? Which of the 27 "Greek texts" of Nestles do you "prefer"? Or which of the various United Bible Society's (UBS) texts do you "like"? Or have you decided that those "texts" are corrupt and you reject them all? And WHY do you "prefer" the so-called "Majority Text" over the Traditional "Received Text" (the "Textus Receptus")?

You see the mess you can get in when you rely on "scholarship" to decide this issue for you? The question is: WHAT IS YOUR FINAL AUTHORITY? In the end you are going to have to "choose" (at some point) - just exactly what you are going to "rely" on when it comes to living and obeying "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".

Quote:
"God's Word has been preserved in the existing manuscripts of the Majority Text."
Sure you can find the word of God (God's words) in and amongst the thousands of manuscripts in existence (most of which are unavailable to you), but Does our God expect us to go rummaging around all of those manuscripts housed in various cities through out the world? Or has He provided us with His Holy word {in a Book that you can hold in your hands} - just exactly as He has Preserved it for us in the King James Bible?

If you continue on the course that you are on, you will never have a "FINAL AUTHORITY", other than your own preferences and private opinions (or those preferences and opinions of your professors).

I have a Book (The King James Bible) that is my FINAL AUTHORITY in ALL matters of faith and practice. This Book has been my guide and comfort for over 50 years. I refuse to trade it in for the opinions and preferences of the scholars. I refuse to substitute "The Greek" (take your pick!) for the English words within my Book. I refuse to use Strong's or Kittel's or any other Concordance or Lexicon to "correct" or "improve" my understanding.

I am endeavoring to live my Christian life according to God's Holy word {The King James Bible -not a bunch of unavailable manuscripts} and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. How can you possibly do the same, when you don't know where His Holy word is, or, if it is impossible for you to access it since it is unavailable to you?

Here is the original question that Atlas posed:
Quote:
"Do we need Greek and Hebrew?"
And the answer is: We did (at one time) along with all of the other materials necessary to produce a Bible Translation.

Do we need the Hebrew and Greek today? NO! God does not require that all believers become scholars, linguists, and translators. God provided the right men at the right time to produce His perfect word - Holy and without error. You couldn't find 50 men throughout the whole of "Christendom" today that could come even close to those learned and pious men {my apologies to brother John Hinton, who I believe is the only man alive who would fill the bill}.

Brother, you're young and you have a lot to learn. You can get a whole lot of knowledge in college (some good - some bad). But spiritual "discernment", "understanding", and "wisdom" come from God - NOT college, books, or men (no matter how much you might admire them). Study the Holy word of God (The King James Bible); seek God's will for your life; and follow:

Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

When you come on to a Forum (any Forum) don't go accusing the brethren (or a brother) and make statements that you cannot back up with verifiable facts - it doesn't reflect well on you, or the school that you're from.

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.