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Old 07-18-2008, 03:25 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 462

Hi Folks,

Originally Posted by stephanos
Have any of you actually read some of the books these so called Nazarene Israelites/Messianic's have written?
Hi Stephen and Bible Student,

Interesting discussion.

Yes, I have skimmed and read varous books and know a lot of the names involved personally. And in fact I was actually quite sympathetic to this viewpoint when I did not understand that God's word was fully inspired and preserved. To the point of attending a sacred name event in Michigan - and having various visits and communications with other groups - and discussing the Bible issues with them, their various theories of trying to insert their preferred names into the NT (which is actually similar to the debauched Jehovah Witness NT methodology). Actually there are various philosophies involved, not all Hebrew Roots stuff is deficient, most of what you are referring to is where they are either 'sacred name' or 'qodesh name' and various Bible corrector ideas. Yet, it is true that even the sounder 'Hebrew Roots' (e.g. where they accept the name of Jesus as sound and valid and given in the historical, preserved NT) usually have a propensity to false pure Bible criticism from 'the Hebrew'. (The more learned in those realms will acknowledge quietly that the King James Bible is an excellent reflection of the Masoretic Text, that is why it was noteworthy to see this fellow strangely attack the MT, leaving him with no preserved NT or OT.) However Hebrew Roots is a wide term, as is Messianics, your 'Nazarene Israelites' is more alongside the doctrines you mention, the specific term used by a fellow named Norman Willis, who I met in Israel a few years back and then maintained some contact (I was asking him to speak publicly about the plagiarism mentioned below). The book on Galatians is probably the one by Bradley Marcus (Avi Ben Mordechai). Note - a sacred name group in Pennsylvania also has a book on Galatians.

You are right that the fact that Iesous == Jesus is given and preserved in the NT text (and Christ is shown as fully equivalent to Messias in John) essentially deep-sixes the movement's principle philosophy. This simple truth had a profound effect on me, especially when I realized the deficiencies of the rewrite attempts.

And I have a 30-page article exposing one of their versions HRV - Hebrew Roots Version - as an abject plagiarism. These groupings are rather splintered so each one comes up with their combination of names and theories and version rewrites.

Since the DSS Great Isaiah Scroll and the Masoretic Text are close to identical (putting aside dialect differences) this fellow had to stretch to try to find a point to make on Isaiah, so I may take a look at that later. The idea that the Masoretes tampered is now essentially discredited, with the Great Isaiah Scroll being one powerful evidence. If there was a place for the Masoretes to want to tamper, to override their fealty to the Bible text, it would be Isaiah, especially verses in chapter 7 and 9 and the full chapter 53 (and end of 52); yet after 1000 years the MT and DSS texts are essentially identical. Thus the true Hebrew text was being copied meticulously and carefully and accurately, which fits well with what we know of their scribal skills and techniques. It is well known that the DSS scroll does have some corruptions, this was not the Jerusalem Temple scroll, there is a website that actually goes through the scroll word-by-word, although most of those errors are simply obvious scribal faux pas. So I have a bit of interest in looking up the fellow's assertion, working around all his other confusions and belligerence.

The resources are readily available, although one resource I had, an article in a book by Daniel Sapp showing the gross inferiority of the Greek OT on Isaiah 53, discussing also the close harmony of the Masoretic Text and the DSS, I may have misplaced and need to rebuy or photocopy in a library. Neat article, which with sound scholarship ends up essentially affirming the pure Bible

One thing that astonished (shocked) this 'movement' five years ago was when Karaite scholar Nehemiah Gordon (confused on the NT but quite good on many asapects of the Tanach - OT ) came out strongly against 'yahweh' as a paganism, and defended a 3-syllable form of the Tetragram very close to Jehovah, Yehovah if I remember offhand. Since a lot of them have a philosophy that sees 'yahshua' or 'yahushua' or some other variance in 'yahweh' that caused many of them spiritual conniptions and they then had to switch gears this way and that to come up with new excuses for the false usages.


Last edited by Steven Avery; 07-18-2008 at 03:49 AM.