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Old 03-18-2009, 11:27 PM
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tonybones2112 tonybones2112 is offline
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 754

Originally Posted by Biblestudent View Post
Brother George, thanks for asking that question for me!

Brother tonybones 2112, I seem to agree with some of your "disagreements", but I disagree with you concerning the beginning of the Body of Christ and with your "drycleaning" conclusion.

I would like to ask two more questions:
1. Wasn't Christ made HEAD of the church, which is his body, at the Ascension? (Ephesians 1:22,23) If so, then the body has to be at least begin AFTER that.
2. Also, if water baptism is a sign (and signs are for the benefit of the Jew), then why did Paul baptize Gentiles even without one Jew present (as in Acts 16)?
This viewpoint may also vary from most of the brethren's in this forum, but have you ever considered that Paul's water baptism is different from that of John the Baptist's and Peter's in mode and meaning?

I don't see water baptism as a sign or a law only for the Jew (the word "baptism" being absent in the KJV OT). So, instead of doing away water baptism, I "rightly divide" the different baptisms, such as, Peter's vs. Paul's.
That is, I observe the "ordinancES" (plural, at least two) AS PAUL delivered it (1 Cor. 11:2), and not observe the "ordinances" which is CONTRARY to us (Col. 2:14-16).

Concerning your experience being an "outcast", I suffered the same thing with my fellow IFB's and "Ruckmanites". The two groups don't mix here, but I'm glad I haven't really broken fellowship from either as they are solid KJV Bible believers, and many times, we'd go together preaching (and "street preaching") with one mind and heart.
!. George, you could very well be correct on Ephesians 1.This would place the beginning of the Body Of Christ in Acts 1. My only objection to that is the passages in Ephesians 1 seem to indicate He was made Head of a Body already in existence, that being the 11 Apostles and His disciples. We cannot have an Ascension without a Resurrection, no Resurrection without a Burial, no Burial without a Death. I stand with Dr. Ruckman on this one: What have I got in my pocket? Something can be in existence without being revealed, we are looking back 2000 years after the fact. God made the Old Testament with Israel that was not binding on the Gentiles, at the cross He made a New Testament with Israel in that the Gentiles were now open to the blessing THROUGH ISRAEL. At the final rejection in Acts 7, Israel was set aside and salvation and blessing now come to the Gentiles apart from Israel. This segues into number two,
2. The first water baptism in the bible was in Leviticus 8, the first step in consecrating a Levite priest, the second step being the pouring of oil, a type of the Holy Spirit.To fulfill the prophecy of Exodus 19 to make a kingdom of priests, John The Baptist, of the tribe of Levi, came baptising with water., as he said several times, but One greater than he would perform the second part of the consecration, Christ, Who would "baptize"(pour out to wash)with the Holy Ghost. This is why the Holy Spirit points out in the Scriptures Apollos knew only "the baptism of John" and had to be shown a more perfect way. That's why Paul, a wise master builder, wrote to Jewish-Gentile churches (Rome, Corinth)and administered both "ordinances" and "signs".

1. Water baptism
2. Spirit baptism
3. Tongues
4. Signs
5. Wonders
6. Heal the sick
7. Raise the dead
8. The "Lord's supper"
9 Poisonous serpents will cause no harm.
10. Deadly poisons drank will cause no harm(to be fulfilled in the Tribulation when the waters are made bitter.)

I want to engrave two things into stone right now: The book of Acts is a very dangerous place to nest in and build a church denomination or theology from. I told my former Church Of Christ relatives that years before I read Doc Ruckman's words to that effect in his commentary on the book of Acts. The second is that we have to let Paul be what God made him into, a wise MASTER buldier who oversaw the whole project. Paul was the apostle through which God grafted the Gentiles into the Body and the apostle the 12 deferred to as the "prince" of the apostles, NOT Peter. So yes, Paul, a WISE master builder baptized in Acts 16 and then got bit by vipers in Act 28 and threw them into the fire. His ministry exclusively to Israel ended at the end of that chapter/book. Bullinger said the Body began there. No, the Body began at Calvary, the signs ended at Acts 28.

Paul mentions the Lord's supper to the Corinthians in the context of stop having orgies at church. When we were on the street with that ministry, every beer bottle and rock, every bag of urine thrown at us was a reminder of why we were there, to tell the lost of Christ's broken body and shed blood for everybody, not Welch's juice and a Zesta saltine. Jesus Christ and the 12 observed the Jewish Passover where Christ showed them the TRUE meaning of the ordinance and Feast. I don't observe it. I'm a Gentile born outside the commonwealth of Israel but made nigh by the blood of Christ, not by immersion in water nor Welch's and a Zesta saltine.

If we are going to cherry-pick Messianic Jewish ordinances and signs from the book of Acts, I need to see where church buildings, church letters, and denominations are found in the book of Acts since the only church buildings mentioned were synagogues and meeting in people's homes. Paul went to the Jews FIRST right up to the end of the book of Acts. I go to anybody and everybody.

Brother George, I'd be proud to serve in the front lines with you preaching Christ and Him crucified. if you need any further clarification just ask. My dispensationalist brethren are still trapped at Early, Mid, Late Acts. I'm in Acts chapter 29 verse 1. You say there is no Acts 29. Yeah, look in the mirror.

Right now, today. Acts 29 is us. The fields are white to harvest, today is the day of salvation.

Grace, peace, and much fruit to you.