Thread: 1611 vs 1769
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Old 07-06-2009, 08:51 AM
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Let us assess ideas, but let us not submit to “Only by pride cometh contention” (Prov. 13:10a).

The query at hand is, are there any significant differences between the First 1611 Edition and the 1769 Edition.

First of all, let us realise that what the printers printed is not exactly what the translators had. This is a known fact. What we cannot say is every last place where this is so, but we can have a good idea.

Second of all, we should be aware that the language and spelling was not standardised, so there are differences which have arisen from this having taken place in the history of the KING JAMES BIBLE.

Thirdly, there are changes due to editorial regularisation. This means that a more consistent use of italics has been introduced, and on occasions, a reframing of the English, or effects in the English for a consistency, or uniformity of usage, etc.

There is no real case for differences in the actual Version (Text)or Translation of the King James Bible.

* 1 Corinthians 12:28 – “helpes in gouernmets” vs. “helps, governments”

There is an extremely high degree of probability that this was a typographical error. It was corrected to the translators’ intended rendering in 1629.

* Joshua 3:11 – “Arke of the Couenant, euen the Lord” vs. “ark of the covenant of the Lord”

There is an extremely high degree of probability that this was a typographical error. It was corrected to the translators’ intended rendering in 1629.

* 2 Kings 11:10 – “in the Temple” vs. “in the temple of the LORD”

There is an extremely high degree of probability that this was a typographical error, where the Bishops’ text was retained by the typesetter without the translators’ emendation being added, consequently corrected in 1638.

* Isaiah 49:13 – “for God” vs. “for the LORD”

There is an extremely high degree of probability that this was a typographical/copyist error, where the Bishops’ text was retained by the typesetter without the translators’ emendation being taken, consequently corrected in 1638.

* Jeremiah 31:14 – “with goodnesse” vs. “with my goodness”

There is an extremely high degree of probability that this was a typographical error. It was corrected to the translators’ intended rendering in 1629.

* Jeremiah 51:30 – “burnt their dwelling places” vs. “burned her dwellingplaces”

There is an extremely high degree of probability that this was a typographical error, where the Bishops’ text was retained by the typesetter without the translators’ emendation being taken, consequently corrected in 1629.

* Ezekiel 6:8 – “that he may” vs. “that ye may”

There is an extremely high degree of probability that this was a typographical error. It was corrected to the translators’ intended rendering in 1638.

* Ezekiel 24:5 – “let him seethe” vs. “let them seethe”

There is an extremely high degree of probability that this was a typographical error. It was corrected to the translators’ intended rendering in 1638.

* Ezekiel 24:7 – “powred it vpon the ground” vs. “poured it not upon the ground”

There is an extremely high degree of probability that this was a typographical error, where the Bishops’ text was retained by the typesetter without the translators’ emendation being taken, consequently corrected in 1613.

* Ezekiel 48:8 – “which they shall” vs. “which ye shall”

There is an extremely high degree of probability that this was a typographical error, where the Bishops’ text was retained by the typesetter without the translators’ emendation being taken, consequently corrected in 1638.

* Daniel 3:15 – “a fierie furnace” vs. “a burning fiery furnace”

There is an extremely high degree of probability that this was a typographical error, where the typesetter omitted a word from the translators’ intended rendering, consequently corrected in 1638.

* Matthew 14:9 – “the othes sake” vs. “the oath’s sake”

This is utter foolishness, in that apostrophes were not used in 1611, and clearly ONE oath was made, not multiple ones, which is the suggestion of some who rely upon book-learning of the Greek.

* 1 Corinthians 15:6 – “And that” vs. “After that”

There is an extremely high degree of probability that this was a typographical error, where the typesetter accidentally set the word from the previous verse, consequently corrected in 1616.

* 1 John 5:12 – “the Sonne, hath” vs. “the Son of God hath”

There is an extremely high degree of probability that this was a typographical error, where the typesetter omitted the words from the translators’ intended rendering (and Bishops’ Bible), consequently corrected in 1629.

Almost all these above cases clearly fall into the category of typographical errors in the first printing of 1611.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Critical Thinking View Post
Steven's statement is the only real answer to the original inquiry. Every one else seems to not want to deal with the core issue. Let's take another look at the other responses again –
Critical’s “core issue”, which he conveniently thrusts upon this inquiry, is his a priori assumption that there are actually significant differences between 1611 and today.

In the above examples, is there really a case where there are actually or even probably, or even possibly, underlying textual and translational differences? I do not think so.

When it comes to a few other cases of minor importance, it could be said that there is some sort of variation in the original language details, but even these cases can be explained, and are certainly not in the examples listed above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Critical Thinking View Post
No, the list is NOT presenting a majority of orthographic issues. Your incorrect reply does not help. Try actually reading them carefully, looking past the archaic spelling. Do you now see some completely different words? Do you now see words in one version lacking in the other?
Looking past Critical’s abrasive (and condescending) tone, I wonder how he can state, “one version lacking in another”. Does Critical believe that the 1611 Edition of the KJB is a different VERSION to the 1769 Edition of the KJB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Critical Thinking View Post
Interesting opinions, but none of it addresses young Cody's question. You tore the man down, but not his evidence. I have a 1611 reprint and have looked at these verses compared to a modern KJV and the differences are genuinely present. Don't be such a coward. Deal with the facts. If you won't, people will begin to distrust you.
Again, looking past the rudeness, I would hasten to point out that Cody’s inquiry is genuine, but Cody is quoting from Rick Beckman, who makes no secret of his rejection of the KJBO view. Is Critical agreeing with Beckmen? It seems that way!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Critical Thinking View Post
Perhaps nothing can be proved, but the differences (additional words, different words) are present in the 1611 text.
Of course things can be proved. But not every last detail can be said to be so. Just because things cannot be categorically stated does not mean that they cannot be valid assumptions, or taken by faith. We cannot say the name of every last translator, but we can say the names of many, and we know that the KJB was translated. Let us accept things as they stand, and not allow some minor points to cloud the facts. It is as if those few questions are the entry point for the enemy to make some great doubt, when in fact, what we do know is enough to make a certain case about, covering all the minor things we cannot certainly say. This is a whole lot better than doubting everything, or holding nothing certain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Critical Thinking View Post
For those that believe the 1611 was created perfect there is no such thing as an insignificant change.
Really? I’d say that is a lie. In fact, even James White, who is ardently against the KJBO position admits that the differences between 1611 and now are not significant. Clearly, the differences are not significant to KJBOs who know something about typographical errors and spelling alterations, of which there is a sufficient knowledge, so as silly disputes about “perfect” do not shake their faith. (Shades of "Which edition?") Yes, the KJB was and is perfect, but the printers were not perfect, and so it follows that the perfect Bible would be printed with errors. Let’s be clear: there are no real alterations in the text and translation of the KJB, only minor alterations in matters to do with presentation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Critical Thinking View Post
Again, these are NOT "mainly" accidental differences (G-o-d cannot be mispelled as t-h-e L-O-R-D).
In the above list, yes indeed mainly accidental origins, deliberately corrected, creating seeming differences. But the case of “God” and “the LORD” is a kind of typographical error, that is, the copyist error where the emendation upon the previous text (the Bishops’ Bible) was accidentally ignored by the printer. This is a fair assumption. But when it comes overall to differences between 1769 and 1611, checking the entire Bible through, most of the differences would be in mere orthography and spelling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Critical Thinking View Post
"Standardisation of the language" also known as "editorial regularisation" are nebulous and ambiguous terms.
“Standardisation of the English language” is a fact, as is highlighted in the 1750s, a different phenomenon to that of “editorial regularisation”, which deals with consistency of use, word forms, italic typeface, etc. While these terms both are far-reaching, they are not in the end analysis either “nebulous” nor “ambiguous”, for that ultimately the fair and deliberate examination of all cases could with a high degree of certainty put most differences into definitely one of these categories, including the class of typographical (or copyist) errors, and that there are peculiarities to each of these, so that there is enough to warrant taxonomisation into rigid positions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Critical Thinking View Post
Its an escape to not deal with the question. C'mon, face the music. Get real, man.
If the question is not answered to Critical’s liking, I think that Critical would say it is not an answer. But does Critical give an answer? No, he is pleased to play rather poorly Devil’s Advocate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Critical Thinking View Post
You're just guessing, Doug. Circumstantial at best. A non-answer.
And so Critical gives no answer but to reject ours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Critical Thinking View Post
When you read three additional words ("of the LORD" after "in the temple") do you really think it is just a "printing" issue? Well then, it just can't be proved either way. But it does exist. Why not deal with the issue and actually be helpful? Give the kid a substantial rebutal.
I think there is plenty of good stuff for Cody here. Maybe not the kind of information that Critical would like to give Cody, but I think Cody would be better without someone who calls our answers “non-answers”. Well, if the omitting words which appears (and can be given with various valid arguments to be) accidental is not a printing issue, I wonder what it is?

I suspect that Critical really thinks our KJB translators “got it wrong”. If not that, then he must think that all our KJBs today are “wrong” because they don’t match the first 1611 Edition. If either case were his thinking, he would have to try and explain why the KJB has been blessed throughout its history.

But I don't expect answers from him, going on his present demeanour, just unruly questionings.

Last edited by bibleprotector; 07-06-2009 at 08:59 AM.