[George]

Originally Posted by jerry

1 Corinthians was one of the first New Testament books to be written. At that point in time, the early church only did know in part. We need the full NT to open up the Old Testament for us.

Please consider the points raised in this study, as well as the word studies and parallel passages: 1 Corinthians 13:8-12.

Obviously there are some here who are going to disagree with my overall premise right at the start - but at least read the studies, see which words are used in the passage and the parallel passages (to determine if they are indeed referring to the same thing - ie, the glass/mirror being God's Word, which it is clearly declared in two other NT passages), and see the definitions of the words used - I list both Strong's and Webster's - so even those people who dislike Strong's can still see what the actual English words mean. Then after studying these passages and words out, you will be in a better position to discuss this issue - even if you disagree with my conclusions.

Song of Solomon 2:9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

In the OT, we see Jesus through a lattice, a screen, hidden - until the light of the NT shines on the OT - then you see Him everywhere, in the construction of the tabernacle, in the animal sacrifices, in the countless types, in the Messianic prophecies, and even in many other passages of Scripture (as the one who is speaking - see Isaiah 48:16, as the Angel of the Lord, as God walking in the Garden of Eden - see John 1:18 [it wasn't the Father appearing to them, as no man has seen the Father at any time - it was the Son that took on the appearance of flesh, then later was manifest in the flesh]).

Re: 1 Corinthians 13:12 - By Jerry Bouey

{All underlines are mine – My comments are in Italics - George}

“1 Corinthians was one of the first New Testament books to be written.”

How do you know that this was one of the “first” New Testament Books written? This is pure speculation on the part of some “scholars” which should not even enter into your "premise", since it has no bearing on the subject at hand. However, if you are using this “speculation” as part of your argument, then you are already starting out on the “wrong” foundation i.e. the “speculation” of “scholars” – which has proven over and over to be nothing but sand – QUICKSAND.

“At that point in time, the early church only did know in part.”

Are you claiming that now - we have arrived? (we know so much more now); that is now - we “know even as also I am known”? The Scriptures say that: “. . . . . . for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men” [1 Kings 8:39 & 2 Chronicles 6:30] and again: “And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts . . . .” [Luke 16:15]; “And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;” [Acts 15:8]. Are you claiming that NOW we know even as God knows us? Is that possible in the sorry state that we find ourselves in (I’m referring to our carnal flesh; our weak conscience; our wicked & deceitful heart; our minds susceptible to corruption; our spirit that can get dirty – not the Holy Spirit that dwells within each believer). We aren’t going to: “know even as also I am known” until we get our glorified bodies and are made perfect in Christ – at last.

I do not know everything. And though I have met several really talented Bible teachers and have read many more – I have yet to meet any Christian elder/pastor/teacher that knows everything. The verse says: 1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. Paul included himself in the equation.

“We need the full NT to open up the Old Testament for us.”

Amen to that brother, but I will have to add a “caveat” to that – We also need the Holy Spirit to give us discernment, understanding, and wisdom; and to reveal the truth of God’s words to us in both the Old & New Testaments [1 Corinthians 2:1-16]. Possessing or having the whole “Canon” or complete Bible has never been a “guarantee” for doctrinal purity or for God’s people knowing: “even as also I am known”. (The Eastern Orthodox Church had the Scriptures (in the hallowed GREEK) and I doubt that any one on this Forum would say that that church is a “bastion of orthodoxy”.

”Please consider the points raised in this study, as well as the word studies and parallel passages: 1 Corinthians 13:8-12.”

When I first came across this thread in the Forum a couple of weeks ago I followed your link to your web page and read (and re-read) your paper on this subject. I disagreed with it then and I still do – but I never responded. But when I noticed some other brethren on this Forum in agreement with your “premise” or interpretation of the verses I could no longer “contain”.

“Obviously there are some here who are going to disagree with my overall premise right at the start - but at least read the studies, see which words are used in the passage and the parallel passages (to determine if they are indeed referring to the same thing – i.e., the glass/mirror being God's Word, which it is clearly declared in two other NT passages), and see the definitions of the words used - I list both Strong's and Webster's - so even those people who dislike Strong's can still see what the actual English words mean. Then after studying these passages and words out, you will be in a better position to discuss this issue - even if you disagree with my conclusions.”

I read and re-read the “study” that you presented and I don’t mean to be offensive, but to be honest, when I saw the method you employ to study the Bible and how you arrive at your "conclusions" – it scares me. For example: you statement above about "the glass/mirror being God's Word" - did you forget Revelation 21:21? "And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass". Glass in the Bible if it is looked INTO is a mirror; glass that you look THROUGH is "transparent glass". There are at least 2 kinds of glass not just one as you have presented your "premise".

I do not nor have I ever used Strong’s for any other purpose than looking up verses with the same word in it. The Bible has given us the only method by which we are to study: [Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:] and just to make sure that we “get it” God repeated Himself: [Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.] I never have allowed James Strong or Noah Webster determine the meaning of any word in the Bible when it comes to spiritual matters. I want to be clear here – For example: when it comes to the definition of the body-soul-spirit (our “substance”) & the heart-soul-conscience (our “faculties”) I would no sooner rely on Strong or Webster to give me God’s definition of these words than I would Charles Darwin or Richard Dawkins!

If I want the definition of the heart (approximately 950 occurrences in 880 verses); or mind (111 occurrences in 108 verses); or conscience (32 occurrences in 30 verses - None in the Old Testament)- ditto body, soul, & spirit; etc. I read ALL of the verses {“line upon line”} and I Collate, Categorize, Compile & Catalogue the verses (by “precept upon precept” – “here a little, and there a little”). I don’t go to a man (Strong or Webster or Ruckman or Cloud or any other man) to get the definition.

This takes time and effort – but by the time I am through I will have a far better idea of what God says and means than taking a “short cut” to Strong’s and get his personal definition of what he “thinks” a Hebrew or Greek word “means”.

(The following is part of Jerry's post):
Song of Solomon 2:9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

"In the OT, we see Jesus through a lattice, a screen, hidden - until the light of the NT shines on the OT - then you see Him everywhere, in the construction of the tabernacle, in the animal sacrifices, in the countless types, in the Messianic prophecies, and even in many other passages of Scripture (as the one who is speaking - see Isaiah 48:16, as the Angel of the Lord, as God walking in the Garden of Eden - see John 1:18 [it wasn't the Father appearing to them, as no man has seen the Father at any time - it was the Son that took on the appearance of flesh, then later was manifest in the flesh])."

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the Old Testament in "type"; prophecies; etc. However, I believe that most of your exegesis is pure "speculation" and or "private interpretation" and I shall endeavor in a later post to analyze your whole thesis (premise) in great detail.