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Old 06-14-2009, 05:26 PM
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George George is offline
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Default Re: ""Rightly Dividing" The Book of Acts"

Aloha brother Winman,

I believe we are at “cross-purposes” in regards to this issue. You have continually ignored most of the points that I have made in this Thread, and then have proceeded to defend your beliefs (albeit with Scripture) without regard to what I have presented.

I will now proceed to demonstrate what I have claimed:

Winman’s Post #32 {with my comments & observations}
Brother Winman's quote:
"Bro George

Perhaps you misunderstand me. I completely agree with you that the apostles were first sent to the Jews. 100%

Where I disagree, and perhaps I misunderstand you, is that from the beginning of Acts, the Lord had also determined the gospel would go to the Gentiles."
WHICH “GOSPEL” were you referring to?

the gospel of the kingdom? [Matthew 4:23]

the gospel of the uncircumcision? [Galatians 2:7]

the everlasting gospel? [Revelation 14:6]

Or were you referring to Paul’s “Gospel” – better known as:

my gospel” [Romans 2:16]
our gospel” [2Corinthians 4:3]

the gospel of the grace of God[Acts 20:24]

the gospel of God[Romans 1:1]
the gospel of his Son” [Romans 1:9]
the gospel of Christ” [Romans 1:16]
the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” [2Thessalonians 1:8]
the gospel of peace” [Romans 10:15]
the gospel of the uncircumcision” [Galatians 2:7]

If you say that the “Gospel” you are referring” to is “the gospel of the kingdom”, you have a serious “problem”. You see Paul’s “Gospel” was called many things – but it NEVER was called “the gospel of the kingdom”. {NOT ONCE!} When a person “makes” all of the above “Gospels” the SAME, they are “HARMONIZING” the word of truth, instead of RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word of truth.

And if it is the “gospel of the kingdom” - WHICH Kingdom would you be referring to? The “kingdom of heaven? [Matthew 3:2; 4:17; 5:3,10,19-20; 7:21; 8:11; 10:7; 11:11-12; 13:11,24,31,33,44-45,47,52; 16:19; 18:1,3-4,23; 19:12,14,23; 20:1; 22:2; 23:13; 25:1,14]

Or the “Kingdom of God? [Matthew 6:33; 12:28; 19:24; 21:31,43; Mark 1:14-15; 4:11,26,30; 9:1,47; 10:14-15,23-25; 12:34; 14:25; 15:43; Luke 4:43; 6:20; 7:28; 8:1,10; 9:2,11,27,60,62; 10:9,11; 11:20; 12:31; 13:18,20,28-29; 14:15; 16:16; 17:20-21; 18:16-17,24-25,29; 19:11; 21:31; 22:16,18; 23:51; John 3:3,5; Acts 1:3; 8:12; 14:22; 19:8; 20:25; 28:23,31; Romans 14:17; 1Corinthians 4:20; 6:9-10; 15:50; Galatians 5:21; Colossians 4:11; 2Thessalonians 1:5]

If you try to say that the gospel of the kingdom; and the everlasting gospel and the gospel of the grace of God - i.e. Paul’s “Gospel”, are ALL the SAME; you run into the “problem” of when you read about them (in context) they are clearly NOT spoken of as being the SAME!

{The first “problem” with your statement is you fail to identify - WHICH “GOSPEL”? If there is ONLY ONE “Gospel”, then you are correct. IF there is MORE THAN ONE “GOSPEL”, then you are assuming that the “Gospel” that you accepted when you got saved (Paul’s Gospel – i.e. the “Gospel of the Grace of God”) is the SAME “GOSPEL” as the “Gospel” of the Kingdom of God.}

We have gone through this before - Paul’s “Gospel” (simply put) is:

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Did the Lord Jesus Christ “preach” the SAME “GOSPEL” as the Apostle Paul? You couldn’t PROVE it (in a "court of law") if your life depended on it! And the fact that - it was just before the Lord was taken by the nation of Israel’s leaders (to be killed) that He “forewarned” ONLY His disciples about His upcoming betrayal, death, and crucifixion [
Matthew 20:17-19, 26:1-2] – does NOTPROVE” that He “preached” His death burial and resurrection to the rest of the nation of Israel, or anyone else for that matter. {He came to the nation of Israel as their Messiah and King; (NOT their CRUCIFIED SAVIOUR!) and He presented Himself as such (He DID NOT “preach” His death, burial, and resurrection to the nation of Israel!). It wasn’t until He was about to be crucified that He revealed His betrayal, death, and crucifixion to His disciples – who refused to believe Him, even after He told them!}

Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them,
18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,
19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Matthew 26:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,
2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

What was the “Gospel” that the Lord “preached” (in Matthew)?

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Read Chapters 5, 6, and 7 of the Book of Matthew – those Chapters clearly DEFINE “the ‘Gospel’ of the Kingdom” [which “Gospel” - obviously is NOT the “SAME” as Paul’s “Gospel”!]

What was the “Gospel” that the Lord “preached” (in Mark)?

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the
kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Read Chapter 16 of the Book of Mark – “the ‘Gospel’ of the Kingdom” described therein obviously is NOT Paul’s “Gospel” – They are NOT the “SAME”]

Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with
signs following. Amen.

IF the “Gospel of the kingdom” is the “SAME” as Paul’s Gospel” WHAT HAPPENED to the “SIGNS” that were promised to “them that believe”? I know that the Pentecostals (i.e. “Charismatics”) have been TRYING to “reproduce” those signs for about a hundred years now, but in the 50 years I have been saved I haven’t SEEN one genuine SIGN following “them that believe”! I “believed” in October of 1958 and NO SIGNS have followed me! WHY is that?

It’s because I have believed the “Gospel of the Grace of God” (Paul’s “Gospel”); I did NOT believe the “Gospel of the Kingdom” - that the Lord and His disciples (including Judas) preached (exclusively to the Jews) while He was here on the earth; and which “Gospel” the Apostles and Disciples continued to preach (exclusively to the Jews and Proselyte Jews) in the first Seven (7) Chapters of the Book of Acts.

IF the “Gospel” that the Lord told His Disciples to preach is the “SAME” as Paul’s “Gospel” – WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SIGNS that were promised to “them that believe”? Hmmm?

And what about the “Gospel” in the Book of Luke?

Luke 4:42 And when it was day, he departed and went into a desert place: and the people sought him, and came unto him, and stayed him, that he should not depart from them.
43 And he said unto them, I must preach the
kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.
44 And he preached in the synagogues of
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
Luke 9:6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

Whatever “Gospel” the Lord “and His Disciples “preached” – “SIGNS” and “HEALING” always followed thatGospel” (including the first few Chapters of Acts). And although “signs” and “healing” followed the Jewish Apostles during most of their ministry, the gifts (extraordinary powers) of “signs” and “healing” did NOT TRANSFER to the Gentile “believers”; and even at the end of Paul’s ministry, Paul was unable to cure his “beloved son” Timothy of a simple stomach ache or Timothy’s “often infirmities”! [1Timothy 5:23]

Paul truly had “the SIGNS of an Apostle” [2Corinthians 12:12] for several reasons:

1. To convince the other Apostles and the Lord’s Disciples that he (Paul) was a genuine Apostle.

2. To prove his “Apostleship” to unbelievers {Apostles were supposed to have “signs”.}.

3. To prove he was a genuine Hebrew Apostle to the Jews who were “scattered abroad” in the various cities where Paul preached (always “to the Jew FIRST, and also to the Greek” i.e. Gentile) [Romans 1:16; 2:10]. You see, the Jewsrequire a sign” [1Corinthians 1:22] and God was obligated to give them signs. So as Paul went from town to town and city to city, he always went to the Jews’ synagogues FIRST. God’s “commission” to Paul was that he was to go “to the Jew FIRST”, and so God gave Paul the “signs of an apostle” to PROVE to those Jews (that were scattered abroad) that he was, indeed, truly an Apostle from God.

Please notice how “lengthy” my comments have been on just one of your sentences – i.e. your quote: “Where I disagree, and perhaps I misunderstand you, is that from the beginning of Acts, the Lord had also determined the gospel would go to the Gentiles.” And please observe that all throughout my comments I have used Scripture to support my beliefs. The fact that someone USES Scripture to PROVE A POINT, doesn’t necessarily mean that WHAT they say, or are trying to PROVE, is “TRUE”!

The sad fact of the matter is –ALL of the Cults USE the Scriptures (Mormons; Seventh Day Adventists; Jehovah’s Witnesses; etc.)! And ALL of the Heretical branches of “Christianity” USE Scripture (Church of Christ; Baptist Bride; most Pentecostal churches, etc.)! TRUTH is NOT determined by whether someone (or some Sect) USES Scripture – “TRUTH” is determined by whether we are “rightly dividing the word of truth” or NOT!

We are commanded to: “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”[2 Timothy 2:15] The way to determine when a person is speaking the “truth” is to examine what they have said in their Posts and determine who is seeking to rightly divide “the word of truth”, and who is seeking to harmonize “the word of truth”. As to which one of us is presenting the “Truth” - I will leave THAT to the judgment of those on this Forum.

Here is the next part of your Post #32:
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Here Jesus names the exact order that the apostles would witness to. They began in
Jerusalem, then Judaea, then they went to Samaria, and then to the Gentiles.

So, I do not believe the apostles were sent to the Gentiles because the Jews rejected the gospel and stoned Stephen. The Jews had already rejected Jesus on Palm Sunday when he entered
These verses and the verses that follow have no bearing on the real differences between us because we all know (and agree) that the Lord Jesus Christ was REJECTED (by the nation of Israel) in the four Gospels. My “point” has always been that the nation of Israel REJECTED THE HOLY GHOST living in the Apostles and Disciples, and it is this final REJECTION, by the nation of Israel, of the last Person in the GODHEAD that led to God turning to the Gentiles.

In my Post #31 on this Thread I said:

“In Acts Chapters 1 through 7 – There are at least 107 references made exclusively TO the people of the nation of Israel and NONE made directly TO the Gentiles! WHAT MORE does someone “need” in order to understand that in the first 7 Chapters of the Book of Acts, the Lord God (through the guiding of the Holy Spirit) led the Apostles and Disciples to preach ONLY to Jews and Proselyte Jews, and DID NOT “extend” that preaching to the Gentiles until AFTER the stoning of Stephen (the rejection of the Holy Spirit by the nation of Israel - which is the turning point of the Book Of Acts!), whereupon the Lord began to turn unto the “Gentiles” – who are referenced 28 times (AFTER Acts Chapter 7) from Acts 8 through Acts 28!”

And so most of the following Scriptures (that you cited) are superfluous, since we are in agreement as to WHEN the Nation of Israel REJECTED the Lord Jesus Christ.

Here is the next part of your Post #32:
Luke 19:29 And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples,
30 Saying, Go ye into the village over against you; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither.
31 And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.
32 And they that were sent went their way, and found even as he had said unto them.
33 And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt?
34 And they said, The Lord hath need of him.
35 And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.
36 And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way.
37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Prophesy had foretold that the promised King would be riding a colt

Zech 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

And Jesus said this was "thy day" and that the Jews "knewest not the time of thy visitation".

So, where we disagree is when Jesus was rejected by the Jews. I believe he was rejected the day he entered
Jerusalem as King. Many did receive Jesus as King that day. But the Pharisees, chief priests, scribes, and chief of the people did not, and sought to destroy him.”
I don’t know where you got the "idea" that we “disagree” on WHEN the Jews REJECTED the Lord Jesus Christ; or that I ever claimed that the nation of Israel REJECTED the Lord TWICE. I have always claimed that WHEN the Jews REJECTED the Apostles and Disciples between Acts Chapters 1 through Acts Chapter 7 – they were REJECTING The HOLY SPIRIT, Who was living in them and guiding them in what they said and did; and so most of your Post does not apply, and has little or nothing to do with our “real disagreements”. {I will have more to say about this “misunderstanding (on your part) in a later Post.}

Here is the next part of your Post #32:

”In Luke 20 the Lord tells a parable that shows this rejection.”

Luke 20:13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them? 16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

So, here is the story of Jesus coming into
Jerusalem as King. But he was rejected and killed. And because they killed his son (not Stephen) God says he will destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. So, I believe upon crucifying Jesus, God had determined to give the gospel to the Gentiles. And this is why the Lord included the Gentiles in Acts 1:8.
Again, since you and I are in agreement as WHEN the Lord Jesus Christ was REJECTED, all or most of your comments do NOT apply to our “real disagreements’.

Here is the next part of your Post #32:

I do believe Stephen's stoning was very important. It was at this time that a great persecution rose against the church and many disciples fled. But this was to take the gospel to Judaea and Samaria, just as Jesus had said in Acts 1:8

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

And you see here, they went every where preaching the word. This was not the apostles, they remained in Jerusalem. But this was a partial fullfilling of Acts 1:8. The only region remaining to hear the gospel was;

"and unto the uttermost part of the earth." I am not trying to be argumentive with you, I simply see things a little differently. I see the Lord Jesus already preparing to go to the Gentiles in Acts 1:8, not because of a rejection after Christ's crucifixion, or the stoning of Stephen. The stoning of Stephen and the persecution in Jerusalem was necessary to spread the gospel as the Lord said in Acts 1:8.

And I think I have supplied scripture to support my view.

You can try to "explain away" the fact that at the stoning of Stephen the future Apostle to the Gentiles (Saul - Paul) shows up, and immediately following Stephen's death God leads Philip to the Samaritans (part Jews/part Gentiles) due to "persecution" alone; but that doesn't explain the SIGNS & MIRACLES that accompanied Philip's preaching (and which no longer follow "the Gospel of the Grace of God" - i.e. Paul's Gospel). And it surely wasn't "persecution" that caused God to GUIDE Philip to the Ethiopian Eunuch (a Proselyte Jew - i.e. A GENTILE with NO "connection" to the Jews in Jerusalem). It wasn't "PERSECUTION" that "FORCED" Philip to seek out the Ethiopian Eunuch; it was the LEADING of the Holy Spirit - beginning to turn to the Gentiles! "PERSECUTION" had NOTHING to do with it!

You supplied a lot of Scripture, but most of it had NOTHING to do with our “real disagreements”. In other words most of the Scripture you supplied was superfluous, since we never had any “disagreement” as to WHEN the nation of
Israel REJECTED her Messiah & King in the first place! We “disagree” as to WHAT constitutes the “Gospel” and WHY God turned to the Gentiles.

I shall have more to say about some of your other Posts soon.

Last edited by George; 06-14-2009 at 05:38 PM.