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Old 03-23-2009, 03:21 AM
toiwnz toiwnz is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian View Post
I don't believe that the body of Christ will go through the time of Jacob's trouble, and this "last trumpet" argument is full of holes, which in no way makes it holy!


The phrase "last trumpet" is totally absent from scripture, the closest you will find is the "last trump" in 1 Corinthians 15:52. The last trump does NOT mean the last trumpet, it means it is the last blow (trump) on a trumpet.

The word "trump" is only found twice in scripture, both times it is at the rapture of the church in 1 Cori 15:52 & 1 Thess 4:16, and this trump is identified as the "trump of God", not the trump of an angel:

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

When this "trump of God" is blown, the rapture will take place and God's people, Christians, will ascend to heaven.

There is also a rapture of tribulation saints (not the body of Christ) that takes place in Revelation 11:12, which is just before the 2nd advent of Christ:

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Notice how it's several verses later "the seventh angel sounded" in Rev 11:13-15, and there is no rapture mentioned, the rapture has already taken place 3 verses earlier before the angel even sounded!

Revelation 11: 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The seventh angel sounds the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the millennium, it has nothing to do with the pre-tribulation rapture of church age saints, or any rapture for that matter.

The "last trump" could sound any day now!
The name God is totally absent from the book of Esther. Does that mean He doesn't exsist? Absouletly NOT. I'm sure you here all the time "the phrase rapture is not in the Bible" Does that mean it's not going to happen? The phrase last trumpet is not there, I agree. But since when does last not mean last, final, end, no more after. And I don't see where last trump means last note or sound. Why can't last trump simply mean last trump?

As for a rapture of tribulation saints where is that coming from? So how many raptures are there total? People over spiritualise a lot. Revelation 11:12- the voice from heaven is speaking to these two witnesses. Just like in Revelation 4:1 John is the only one being spoken two when told to come up hither not the whole church. And remember that He was in the Spirit when getting the Revelation of Jesus not the flesh. And still even if these are rapture scriptures, they don't prove a pre trib rapture.

The burden of proof lies with Pre trib. Constantly through out scriptures we are told that the ressurection is on the last day. In John 6, Jesus said multiple times He would raise people up on the last day. Many try to discredit Martha and say she wasn't educated In John 11:24 but she confirmed the ressurection at the last day. Once again since when did LAST stop being last? A lot of things are read into scriptures for a pre-trib rapture. Both explanations of the catching up of the saints in Corinthians and Thessalonians are LOUD, Visible events agreing with Jesus when He said every eye shall see Him. And just like lighting strikes so will His coming. But pre-trib teachers would have you believe that only the saints here these things and not the rest of the world. You don't find that in the scriptures.

It's hard to deny scriptures like Matthew 13, John 17:15,20, Psalm 37:9-11, Proverbs 2:21-22

Clearly PROVERBS 10:30-The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

And enduring is not a works based salvation. If it were then Jesus wouldn't have said it. Enduring is simply having faith, faint not, encouraging one another.