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Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian
Then in verse 11 it's "the smoke of their torment" which ascends for ever and ever, that doesn't have to mean they will be in the Lamb's presence for ever and ever.
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Bingo.
If I go out on the pool deck and observe my hamburgers on the grill at 7:30 p.m. then return to my living room at 7:45, the hamburgers have been grilled "in my presence," but that doesn't mean I have to keep watching them forever. It's a terrible illustration, but hey it's almost dinner time here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian
To me this nullifies faith, I don't believe God allows people to see & experience supernatural things that would cause them to believe in Him.
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Hmmm, well I too am skeptical of most of these out-of-body claims, but that's a little too sweeping of a statement for my taste. You can debate this statement with Dr. Rawlings and Ruckman. I am not ready to say that NO ONE has ever experienced at least a passing glimpse or tiny slice of the supernatural, including hell.
After all, it was the testimony of the man who was clinically dead who convinced the physician to seek a deeper knowledge of God in the Bible. That is undeniable. There were no drugs involved in this death experience. In the end, the experience didn't REVEAL God, it simply revealed a literal place called hell. Neither the doctor nor the patient was seeking a sign, nor were either of them "searching" for God. But that fellow saw something very real after he was clinically dead, and that's exactly what Bro. Ruckman believes too. It's a powerful little book, written by a respected cardiologist and recommended by Ruckman.
See link below...
"This isn't one of those books written by some quack out in left field, this one is written by a doctor, and one who has brought the dead back to life on more than one occasion. Here in this shocking book, people who have died and been brought back to life give their accounts as to what happened to them on "The Other Side". There is a Heaven, and there is a Hell, and once you read the true accounts from these ordinary people, you'll understand why you need to make a decision concerning Jesus Christ. Many of the folks in this book detail the horrors of Hell , and many share the warm loving and peaceful experience of Heaven. I have bought a number of copies of this book, and each time I lend a copy to a friend, it is never seen again. After one reads it, they share it with another , and then another and so on. This book will make you stop and think about death and about the after life."
http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Deaths-.../dp/0553229702