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Old 06-05-2009, 05:13 AM
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Greektim Greektim is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Beaufort, NC
Posts: 123

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 View Post
Tim, there are few things in the world I love more than standing, you have to stand since they are so petrified their legs won't bend, but stand and discuss with a petrified, stone-hard Calvinist the doctrines of preterism, pedobaptism, sublapsariansism, supralapsarianism, infralapsarianism. the errors of Sabellianism with a Jesus Only/Oneness Pentecostal or Arianism with a JW. Okay, I know all the big words and am fully equipped, as Paul said, to be all things to all men. Yeah, sometimes I forget the difference between Eusebius and Origen, I have Adult ADD and see reality through 20 TV screens, rather than the one normal humans see it through.

Your system of theology is different from mine, yours was taught to you by someone who was taught by someone who was taught by someone who was taught that the pattern for the present say church is founded in Acts 2 with water baptism, tithing, the Lord's Supper, confession of sin(s) to God and the commission of Matt. 28. What they didn't teach you was that we are merely grafted into this Second Church in the Scriptures to maintain unity of the Body, and that for Acts 2 to be the pattern for present church practice you must:

1. Manifest the signs of Mark 16.
2. Have all material things in common.
3. Be living in the fearful expectation of the Tribulation of Joel 2 that Peter preached in Acts 2.

"Progression dispensationalism"?

No, progressive revelation. The first person I ever heard use this term was Dr. Peter Ruckman and he uses the term and the concept to great effect until it crosses denominational doctrine and he abandons it. As boith brother George and i have demonstrated in dispensational understanding is you have to go back to the time period and consider what Peter knew at the time he preached, consider his compirmising the Messianic church message with those who still kept the Law, and then his getting straightened out by Paul and Barnabas at the council at Jerusalem in Acts 15 as recounted in Gal.2 and his subsequent understanding of the difference in his message and Paul's on Law vs Grace.

You and I, apart from most in the forum, can "go to the Greek" and "go to the Hebrew" and not offend each other, most forum members are sensitive because many use the practice to impeach the authority of the definition of the English with referneces to either language. I use it to clarify. Let's look in Acts 6 and 7:

Acts 6:9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.

ACts 7:1 Then said the high priest, Are these things so?
2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,

Luke records Stephen's speech in Greek, but did Stephen speak in Hebrew or Greek?

Ac 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Luke records this as the "eccelsia", if Stephen had spoken in Hebrew the word would have been "yaqqaha", gathering, assembly:

Gen. 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy fatherís children shall bow down before thee.
9 Judah is a lionís whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his assís colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

In Genesis 49 Jacob speaks of "the last days"(Gen. 49:1) of this "church", "gathering", "ecclesia" "yaqqaha". In Acts 7, Stephen speaks of it as being at Sinai as God is giving Moses the Law. In this passage Paul calls the Third Church in Scripture, the Body of Christ at the time of the Rapture, "episunagoge", gathered together in once place:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Without regard to Larkin, Scofield, Ruckman, Jamiesson-Fausset-Brown, AT Robertson, Darby, Baker, Stam, or any other commentator, I consult the method of Isaiah 28:9-13 and Hosea 12:10 and find not 7 churches, not 1 church, not 12 churches, but 3 in Scripture:

1. The church in the wilderness: national Israel
2. The Messianic/Apostolic church: Believing Israel, the Kingdom Of Priests, that was rooted in John the Baptist, Christ's earthly ministry, the church that was born on the day of Pentecost and would have and will go through the Tribulation. In Revelation 1:6 they are the "priests" that will serve the earthly kingdom promised to Abraham and his descendants, we are the "kings" who will reign in heavenly places.
3. The Body of Christ that was not prophesied and hid in God, Jews and Gentiles in one body co-equal, a concept impossible to understand by OT Jewish standards, which is why, with it's secret status of being revealed to no man until Paul, it is called a "mystery". Read Eph. 3. Read the OT with regard to the extreme separatist standards of Israel, in their fleshly, spiritual, and racial bigotry towards any nation outside their own.

Tim, my "system" is founded and based on comparing Scripture with Scripture and like the Scriptures, it is not hard to understand, it's hard to believe.

Grace and peace brother

Honestly, I was taught to be a classical Dispo, but it wasn't til I did the study myself that I owned it. So I like to think that it was through my own research that I came to my views.

I am not sure where all that is coming from in the last post. I am trying to stay focused on one topic - the Church as a mystery. You keep going very broad. We can discuss the other things later, but I just want you to delve into this issue a bit first.

Come back to Eph. 3. In fact, the entire book of Eph. Nowhere is the Church said to be a mystery. In fact, what we see is that the Church contains mystery elements - i.e. Jew/Gent in one body & the Church's relationship w/ Jesus as the espoused Bride (chpt 5). Not one passage specifically gives a "but now" to the Church specifically. The statements made are to various aspects of the Church. Now if you want to infer that the 4 main mystery aspects of the Church make the Church a mystyery, then ok. But just know that your terminology should reflect that.

Here is a short article I wrote on this issue: http://debatingtheologicalissues.blo...of-church.html