A Man With One Watch Knows What Time It Is; A Man With Two Is Never Quite Sure
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Originally Posted by bibleprotector
I certainly agree the only valid use for the Greek is as a secondary and confirming witness to the English. However, it is an important issue as to the exact sense, that is, the full scope of God's message being present in English. By this I mean that by translation etc., we now (since 1611) have the full, exact and express message of God in English, which is fully and utterly in English. And reading the King James Bible now is as if God spoke English throughout the inspiration of the Scripture, for the manifest infallibility of it in English.
Burgon said concerning the translators, "When we find them turning ‘goodly apparel,’ (in S. James ii. 2,) into ‘gay clothing,’ (in ver. 3,) — we can but conjecture that they conceived themselves at liberty to act exactly as S. James himself would (possibly) have acted had he been writing English."
The argument is not whether or not the Scripture in English is sufficient for salvation, because very born again believer really will have to admit that. The issue is that God's full and utter truth, exact in words, full in sense, leaving nothing to be desired, having nothing added, is fully present in the King James Bible only".
After that is settled, one more thing needs to be addressed, namely, has God supplied a pure form of the King James Bible, free from printing errors and with standard spellings? I think that He has. While God has blessed various editions of the King James Bible, He has blessed one particular line, and brought it into a kind of acknowledgment that makes it the chosen form.
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I respect your position and convictions, yet I have to disagree with you. I do not think that the Greek or for that matter the Hebrew are secondary to the English. I have stated what I believe and what I wrote was clear enough. First and foremost is determining the exact parameters for who is King James Only. I don’t want to sound redundant, but this is the more important thing. This is vastly more important than my own personal stand within those parameters. Secondly, my own personal view has been posted as well. Now, I am aware that I did not use the very same words as you. Pure semantics if you as me. However, let me at least explain where I am coming from.
• I do not believe all Bibles are equal
• Therefore, some Bibles are better than others
• The King James Authorized Bible is at LEAST the Best English Version of the Word of God
• The King James Authorized Bible was NOT given by inspiration but was given by divine providence
• The English of our King James Authorized Bible cannot correct the Greek or Hebrew for it comes from Greek and Hebrew
• Therefore, English is not superior to Greek, Hebrew, and/or any other language in EVERY way
• It is not the Greek or Hebrew words or Mss. that contain them that are the problem, but rather man’s understanding of those Greek and Hebrew words
• Presenting the King James Only position MUST be done in love, with meekness and grace
• Every person must come to this conclusion for themselves and have the right to disagree
What ever the case, are the parameters that I originally posted correct or not and why (by your standards)?
In this debate (i.e. the Bible Version Debate), we should be fighting side-by-side for the use of and belief in the King James Authorized Bible as the Standard as far as English speaking peoples go.
You and I both agree that having a standard is Biblically conducive. Please correct me if I am wrong. And for those of you who disagree, I will post my argument now.
A Firm Foundation—Certainty, Authority, and Standard: The Biblical Argument For Having A Standard Bible!
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“Throughout the history of Bible translation, whether Greek, Latin, or Reformational, there has been a tendency for one translation to emerge as the standard. This was not a result of debate; it simply happened.” (Vanbruggen, Jakob The Future Of The Bible 1978, p.54)
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“It is argued that unless we embrace the KJV as our ‘final authority,’ we have no final authority at all, and hence all is subjectivity and uncertain. People do not want subjectivity, but desire certainty and clarity, and so we must hold to the ‘traditional’ text. This argument is extremely powerful and should not be underestimated.” (White, James R. The King James Only Controversy: Can You Trust the Modern Translations? Minneapolis, Minnesota: Bethany House Publishers, 1995 pp.93-94)
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The Need For Authority
The need for an authoritative standard appears to be a need recognized by all. For example, the court system has a “Supreme Court”, machine shops have a standard by which to calibrate their tools each year, Occults have their ritual documents upon which to exactly conduct their insidious incantations and sinister summoning, etc.. But, what about the Christian? Where is the Christian‘s authority? In the Bible of course! However, of which Version? There are several you know? Modern scholarship would have us to believe that after God had inspired a text(s) that it somehow fell away and that for some 1500 years the Church (God‘s people) used corrupt manuscripts, and thus, we are in the process of finding those original words. Hence, by Modern scholarship we Christians have no authority in the Bible but in what some scholar thinks the best reading is. Yet, this is contrary to Scriptural testimony (Is. 40:8; 1Peter 1:24-25; Matt. 5:18; Luke 16:17; 21:33).
The disquieting fact that so painfully lies heavy on the back of our time, is that the Church has lucratively and effectively given an answer and contended all the major doctrines in the Bible, and yet, the Bible seems to be just an idea or mirage that looks good from a distance but is disappearing when searched for. Having, distinctively detailed what a Christian is to believe, the question is, “What was used to define it?” You bellow a verbally articulated pronounced statement of reply, “THE BIBLE!” I ask, “But, which one?”
Their Can Be Only One
It has been claimed that, to make one particular Version the standard, is somehow “pinning God down.” Those who believe this think that it is wrong and usually tout, “show me one verse that says to use that one version.” I respond, show me a verse (just one) that prohibits me from “pinning” God down to just one version! I will let you in on a secret; the Bible does not give any of these prohibiting verses. In reality, this kind of argumentation is null and void, because it is not properly addressing what the Bible addresses. Of course the Bible doesn’t name any one Version as the final rule; it doesn’t name any Version at all. What the Bible does do is, lend to the belief in ONE Version. Take as a case in point, note that the true prophets of God spake with one mouth (1Kings 22:13; Luke 1:70; Acts 3:18; Rev. 11:3, 5). Notice, the prophets are plural but speak with ONE mouth (singular). In contrast to this, the wicked, the unruly, the vain talkers, the deceivers, even the idols made by their hands, speak with mouths (plural) (Ps. 22:13; 78:30; Jer. 44:25; Lam. 3:46; Titus 1:10-11). Does, this not indicate that singularity is to be preferred over the many? Those who cry about “pinning God down” to one Version, are simply spewing forth that which is not Biblically existent, rather it is spawned from a couple of fundamental questions. “Why be limited to any one Bible exclusively?” or “Why believe in any onlyism?” The facts are just as fundamental. Does not the Bible teach and do we not believe:
• In ONLY one true God (2Sam. 7:22; 1Chron. 17:20; Malichi 2:10; Mark 12:32).
• In ONLY one way to the Father (John 14:6).
• In ONLY one Master (Matt. 6:24; 23:8,10).
• In ONLY one door to be saved (John 10:9).
• In ONLY one name that Salvation is in (Acts 4:12).
• In ONLY one prefect sacrifice for sin (Heb. 9:11-14).
• In ONLY one beginning (as of time) (Gen. 1:1; John 1:1).
• In ONLY one Body of Christ (i.e. the Church) (Rom. 12:5; Coloss. 1:18, 24; 1Cor. 12:27-28).
• In ONLY one marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 9:7-9).
• In ONLY one manner of law (Ex. 12:49; Lev. 7:7; 24:22; Num. 15:16, 29).
• In ONLY one tabernacle (Ex. 26:6).
Then, why not in ONLY one Bible? Did not God originally author ONLY one Bible? God did not author two versions of Genesis or two renderings of the letter to the Romans! Why would He do it now? The Bible goes on to testify that we are to speak the same thing that we be not divided (1Cor. 1:10) and that we walk by the same rule and mind the same thing (Phil. 3:16). How can we do this when we have conflicting authorities? In like manner we must not forget the Biblical conflict between the one true God and the many false gods. The one true God does not contradict nor is He the author of confusion, but the many gods are.
I want to clarify if I could as to what I really mean. When I talk about pinning God down or limiting Him to only one Bible what do I really mean? Do I mean to convey that the King James Bible should use as the standard of authority for all people every where (weather English speaking or not)? By no means at all! When I speak of God’s word being found in one standard, what I mean is that the King James Authorized Bible is the only real standard for the English speaking peoples. That God’s providentially preserved word; that has been faithfully handed down from the first through the ages, has been providently kept intact in the Biblical English of the King James Bible.
The Conflict
To give you the idea here, take a look at each of these verse comparisons in both the KJV and the NIV. In (Psa. 10:4-5) is the wicked’s ways always grievous or prosperous? In (Prov. 25:23) does the north wind drive away the rain or bring it? In (Prov. 26:22) are the words of a talebearer wounds or choice morsels? In (Is. 9:3) did God increase the joy or not? In (Jer. 51:3) is the archer to bend his bow or not? In (Jer. 27:1) was it the reign of Jehoiakim or Zedekiah? In (Hos. 11:12) does Judah yet rule with God or is Judah unruly against God? In (Matt.18:22) do we forgive our brother 70 X 7 or 77 times? In (Matt. 27:34) was Jesus given vinegar or wine? In (John 9:4) how must do the work, “I” (Jesus) or “we” (Jesus & His disciples)? In (Acts 6:8) was Stephen full of faith or grace? In (Eph. 5:9) is it fruit of the Spirit or light? In (Col. 2:18) is it things which he hath not seen or about what he has seen? In (Rev. 19:17) is it a Great God or a great supper? Which is right? Both cannot be! Which shall you chooses?
The examples above are just a representative portion for there are hundreds even thousands more which could have been cited. Now, let me take this a step further. Examine these 16 verses in the NIV: (Matt. 17:21), (Matt. 18:11), (Matt. 23:14), (Mark 7:16), (Mark 9:44), (Mark 9:46), (Mark 11:26), (Mark 15:28), (Luke 17:36), (Luke 23:17), (John 5:4), (Acts 8:37), (Acts 8:37), (Acts 24:7), (Acts 28:29), (Rom. 1624). Are you having trouble yet? If you are, the reason is, that these verses are not present in the text of the NIV. They may be in a foot note but not in the text itself. The question here is this, do these verses belong in the Bible or not?
Additionally, lets examine one last group of verse comparisons. Please view these 11 verses: (Matt. 13:51), (Mark 9:24), (Luke 7:31), (Luke 9:57), (Luke 22:31), (Luke 23:42), (1Cor. 15:47), (2Cor. 4:10), (Gal. 6:17), (2Tim. 4:1), (Titus 1:4). Is Jesus Lord in these verses or not? Do you not see why we need a standard? A great book illustrating these and more is “Evaluating Versions of the New Testament ” by Everett W. Fowler. Thought, he only focuses on the N.T. he does an awesome job at explaining the why in a simple manner.
This does not mean that other Versions cannot be referred to, howbeit, only in a secondary sense. Nor does it mean that others cannot use a Bible other than the KJAB, for that is a persons personal preference. Although, there are certain questions that we must deal with: “Which Bible should be used as the standard?”, “Which Bible should we use for preaching, teaching, and all areas of controversy?”, “What problems exist if a standard is not kept?”, “Why do you used the Bible you use?”, “What are the reasons and are they reasonable?”. Most importantly we must ask, “Is it Biblically conducive?” Having only one standard indubitably is!
The Implications
The issues faced here are imperative as well as controversial. It is imperative, because of the implication of its most basic Idea, “Does God‘s authoritative Word exist to day?” Think of the implications! What if it doesn‘t? The very book that influenced not only nations but the English language as we know it; and that has touch and change countless lives. Not to mention the blood of enumerable believers who gave their lives to the propagation of it! Yes, the book that is the very breath and Spirit of God! If it be not in existence today, then the Bible is nothing more than a vain Script that means nothing and the faith of those proceeding us was futile. Probably the most devastating problem of it all, is that our faith in the Holy Writ would be bootless, our salvation nonexistent, and we would be hopelessly lost in trespasses and sin.
It is controversial, in that, it involves the very foundation of what we as Christians stand on. The Authoritative Word of God! And that’s just it, for the Christian the Bible is authoritative. It is the finale authority for faith, life and practice. However, the question emerges which demands and almost pesters a clear answer: “Which Bible do you mean?” A little over a century ago this would have been no problem, for the answer was evident: “The standard is the Authorized Version!”; one empire of all controversy to stand as the supreme standard for the faith. Of which it did, by the providence of God, for some 300 years; although, today numerous new Bibles are challenging this standard and persisting for a place of recognition and prominence as valid and more accurate specimens. So, which Version should be the standard? Would God allow one type of Version to reign as the Standard English Bible only to change it latter? That is what we must answer.
Maximum Certainty
The whole issue comes down to having maximum certainty as opposed to maximum uncertainty. If God’s word was not preserved in its entirety, then what certainty can we have of it? How do we know which reading is the acceptable one and which is the unacceptable one? God wants us to have as much certainty as possible as to what He has spoken. For example, again, Jesus told us that man cannot live by bread only, but by every word of God. How pray-tell can mankind in general, in all ages, be responsible for living by EVERY word if it be not preserved? If man has no certainty as to what God’s word specifically says, he cannot .
In fact both the Old & New Testaments express the desire that we are to have a knowledge of certainty concerning His word. We are to know, that is to say, have a knowledge (Prov. 1:23; Hosea 6:3). How can we know anything if we have no certainty as to what God’s word says? Jesus was emphatic, that if we continue in His word we shall KNOW the truth (John 8:31-32). How could Jesus be so certain, unless His word was just as certain? Furthermore, the words of Christ are so important that we will be judged by them if we do not heed them (John 12:47-48; Duet. 18:18-19). So, we must be very certain as to what those words say. The apostle Paul tells us that we are to rightly divide the word of truth (2Tim. 2:15). Again, how can we rightly divide that which is uncertain? Accordingly we read, “For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.” (Ps. 119:89). If it is settled in heaven, ought it to be settled in earth also? Do we not pray that the will in heaven be done on earth (Matt. 6:10; Luke 11:2)? Not that earth is heaven, but that heaven leaves or better yet leads the example as to how earth ought to have been and yet be.
The Bible says, “Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge, That I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?” (Proverbs 22:20-21). See also (Luke 1:4). We are to have confidence, assurance, and maximum certainty that God‘s authoritative Word does exist today so we can love it and have great peace (Ps. 119:165). Seeing as God has taken care of His Word, how much more does He take care of us (1Peter 1:5; 4:19).
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- “One accurate measurement is worth more than a thousand expert opinions”
- “...this is the Word of God; come, search, ye critics, and find a flaw; examine it, from its Genesis to its Revelation, and find an error... This is the book untainted by any error; but is pure, unalloyed, perfect truth. Why? Because God wrote it. Ah! charge God with error if you please; tell him that his book is not what it ought to be. I have heard men, with prudish and mock-modesty, who would like to alter the Bible; and (I almost blush to say it) I have heard ministers alter God's Bible, because they were afraid of it... Pity they were not born when God lived far—far back that they might have taught God how to write.” Charles Haddon Spurgeon (Spurgeon's Sermons Volume 1: Sermon II p. 31)
- “If, therefore, any do complain that I have sometimes hit my opponents rather hard, I take leave to point out that 'to everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the sun' : 'a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embracing' : a time for speaking smoothly, and a time for speaking sharply. And that when the words of Inspiration are seriously imperilled, as now they are, it is scarcely possible for one who is determined effectually to preserve the Deposit in its integrity, to hit either too straight or too hard.” Dean John William Burgon (The Revision Revised. pp. vii-viii)
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