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Old 06-18-2009, 11:31 AM
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Default Re: " Dispensationalism"

Winman’s Post #33 > AV1611 Bible Forums > Doctrine > Dispensationalism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman View Post
And what did Peter preach in Acts 10?

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all: )
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

1) The word was sent unto the children of Israel
2) This word began in Galilee after the baptism which John preached
3)They were commanded to teach Jesus was the Judge of the quick and dead
4) All the prophets gave witness through believeing on Jesus they would receive the remission of sins

Note that the these Gentiles received the Holy Ghost upon hearing the word of God and believeing. And that the Jews were astonished because they received the Holy Ghost "as well as we?"

I can't be dogmatic about this, but I believe this is a strong argument that the Jews in early Acts received the Holy Ghost by hearing and believeing the word of God, and were baptized afterward, just as these Gentiles.

But it is clear that the message was the forgiveness of sins upon believeing on Jesus, not the restoration of the kingdom.
Aloha brother Winman,

Your above Post is a big disappointment to me because it does NOT “PROVE” that the Jews in Acts 2-7 were saved under “the Gospel of the Grace of God”. (You are attempting to HARMONIZE the words of God here.) What the Scriptures that you cited do PROVE is that the CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER of RECEIVING the Holy Spirit was entirely “DIFFERENT” from how the Jews in Acts 2:37-38 RECEIVED the Holy Spirit and how the Gentiles RECEIVED the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:44.
Quote:
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The order in Acts 2:38 is:

#1.
REPENT
{Of WHAT? Of having crucified their Lord and Christ}

#2. Be BAPTIZED
{In water - for WHAT? - “for the remission of sins”}

#3. Ye shall RECEIVE the GIFT of the HOLY GHOST
{WHEN will they RECEIVE the HOLY SPIRIT? – Only AFTER they “REPENT” and are “BAPTIZED” (in water) – NOT BEFORE!}


It’s as easy as 1 – 2 - 3; unless you want to “PROVE” otherwise!

And what about the SAMARITANS (part Jew – the descendants of the 10 Tribes of Israel) in Acts Chapter 8? {I’m getting ahead of myself on my Thread: “Rightly Dividing the Book of Acts”}
Quote:
Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and
seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptizedin the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
I shall expound on these verses later, (in the Thread: “Rightly Dividing the Book of Acts”) but right now please notice the CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER for the SAMARITANS (part Jew – the descendants of the 10 Tribes of Israel)

The order in Acts 8:12-17 is:

#1. They BELIEVED
{The “THINGS” concerning the KINGDOM OF GOD. They did NOT have to REPENT (of anything) – because they did NOT "consent" to the Lord Jesus Christ’s death!}

#2. They were BAPTIZED
{In water – For WHAT? Notice the OMISSION of: “for the remission of sins”. They were NOT GUILTY of REJECTING Israel's Messiah & King.}

#3. They RECEIVED the HOLY SPIRIT
{AFTER they were BAPTIZED – but ONLY AFTER the Apostles laid their hands on them.}

Notice the DIFFERENCE? We are commanded to rightly DIVIDE the word of truth – There is a DIFFERENCE!

And now on to Acts Chapter 10:
Quote:
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
The order in Acts 10:44-48 is:

#1. They HEARD the “word”

#2. They BELIEVED

#3. They RECEIVED the HOLY SPIRIT

#4. They were BAPTIZED – in water

What was that that the Apostle Paul said?

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


This is the “ORDER” of “the Gospel of the Grace of God” (i.e. Paul’s “Gospel”), which ASTONISHED Peter and the Jews that were with him (because up to this moment they DID NOT KNOW IT!) And the only thing that CONVINCED Peter (and the Jews that with him) that these Gentiles had ALREADY RECEIVED the GIFT of the HOLY SPIRIT (WITHOUT water Baptism and WITHOUT the laying on of hands) was the EVIDENCE of the Gentiles speaking in tongues.

Remember: “The Jews REQUIRE a SIGN” [1Corinthians 1:22], and “tongues are for a SIGN” [1Corinthians 14:22].

Up until this moment SIGNS, MIRACLES, and HEALING had been an INTEGRAL PART of the preaching of the Apostles and Disciples. That is - the Jews (and the Samaritans) actually SAW PHYSICAL SIGNS and MIRACLES along with the preaching of the word of God. But in Acts Chapter 10, the Gentiles – only HEARD (the “word”) and they BELIEVED (WITHOUT the SIGNS or MIRACLES).

This was something DIFFERENT from what Peter (and the Jews that were with him) was used to. All during the Lord Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry Peter had observed SIGNS and MIRACLES being performed by the Lord (and the Disciples, themselves, also performed some signs, miracles, and healings). After the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, and up to this point in time, SIGNS, MIRACLES, and HEALINGS had been an INTEGRAL PART of the preaching of the Apostles and Disciples – the reason being is: “THE JEWS REQUIRE A SIGN” (in order to BELIEVE) – and the Holy Spirit had OBLIGED them!

Then what was DIFFERENT now (at this place, and at this point in time)? The Gentiles did NOTrequire a sign” (in order to believe) – they HEARD (God’s “words”) and BELIEVED (WITHOUT SIGNS) and so God blessed them for their “FAITH” and gave them the GIFT of the Holy Spirit WITHOUT water Baptism, and WITHOUT the laying on of hands.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The purpose of the SIGN of the “gift of tongues” was NOT to CONVINCE the Gentiles to BELIEVE (they ALREADY BELIEVED). The purpose of the SIGN of “the gift of tongues” was to CONVINCE Peter (and the Jews that were with him) that these Gentiles were indeed saved (just like the Jews), but WITHOUT the necessity of water Baptism or the laying on of hands!

For you to say: ”I believe this is a strong argument that the Jews in early Acts received the Holy Ghost by hearing and believing the word of God, and were baptized afterward, just as these Gentiles.”is a flagrant abuse of the Scriptures – in the face of the clearly written testimony. You have openly CHANGED God’s Holy words in order to support your personal private beliefs!

The Biblical testimony clearly states:
Quote:
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
In order for those Jews (at this point in time) to RECEIVE the “gift of the Holy Ghost”, they would have had to: REPENT (1st.); and then be BAPTIZED (in water – 2nd.). There is NO WAY that they would have RECEIVED the Holy Spirit just by BELIEVING Peter’s “words”! You CAN NOT MAKE Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:44 the SAME – WITHOUT CHANGING THE HOLY WORDS OF GOD - AS THEY ARE WRITTEN AND RECORDED IN THE KING JAMES BIBLE!

I am absolutely amazed at the lengths that “Christians” will go to, in order to justify and support their beliefs! It is obvious, to genuine Bible believers, that “speculation” and “supposition” should play no part in determining sound Bible doctrine; but the twisting of the Holy words of God, and the wresting of verses of Scripture out of their “context” – in order to “prove a point”, is a perverse practice that no sincere Bible believer should ever engage in.

2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.


Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.