View Single Post
Old 05-24-2009, 07:45 PM
George's Avatar
George George is offline
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
Posts: 891
Default Re: "Is water baptism for today?"

Originally Posted by chette777 View Post
nope they are not all the same

here are your tactics go read them and remember your curse rapped in a blessing that is the wound you left me with the last time we tangled in any topic

I choose no longer to really get involved in discussions with you after that. So I am stepping away from this because of our past circumstances.

so let's ask a neutral party, George, is the gospel Peter is preaching in Act 2 the gospel of Grace or a kingdom Gospel?

Anyone else, Please feel free to chime in as I am chiming out.

Aloha brother Chette and brother Parish,

I don't normally get involved in these disputes between good brothers in Christ ("gap or no gap" & "water Baptism", etc.), but since I have been asked - and hopefully to maintain peace & harmony between brethren:

{Please check out the following links for a more in-depth explanation}

I'll answer the question AFTER I present a few Scriptural "FACTS":

#1. The Bible testifies that from the “FALL” of Adam up to the “CALL” of Abraham (Approximately
2,000 years) God chose to bless certain men as “Individuals” according to “Conscience”. To be more exact – God chose to bless certain of the descendants of Seth (NOT Cain!) and spoke to them in dreams and visions [Job 33:15]. {He walked with Enoch & Noah!}.

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.]

After the Flood God chose to bless Shem, one of the three sons of Noah (who descended from Seth – NOT Cain) and certain of Shem’s descendants, right up until the “CALL” of Abraham. (He chose NOT to deal with Canaan {Ham} or Japheth) All during the time from Seth up until Abraham, God blessed certain individual men (all within the line of Seth) according to “Conscience” – there was no “Scripture of truth” or written “Oracles” of God. And yet, certain men knew God and knew something about His words (Oral – Not Written), as witnessed by the fact that Abelknew” which sacrifice was more appropriate (“excellent”) and pleasing to God [Hebrews 11:4]; Sethknew” how “to call upon the name of the Lord” [Genesis 4:26]; Enoch actually “walked with God” [Genesis 5:22-24]; and Noah also “walked with God” [Genesis 6:9].

When God chose to CALL Abraham, He also chose to change the way in which He would deal with men. Up until Abraham God dealt with “Individuals” (within the line of Seth) according to “Conscience”; from Abraham on up to the virgin birth of the Lord Jesus Christ, God would be dealing - first with an individual FAMILY {Hebrews}; then with an individual TRIBE {TRIBES = The 12 sons of Jacob (Israel) and their descendants}; and eventually with an individual NATION {Israel}.

You will notice that God EXCLUDED Ishmael from the promises He made to Abraham and to Abraham’s descendants (both physical & spiritual), just like he EXCLUDED the descendants of Cain,
Canaan (Ham), Japheth, etc. God later EXCLUDED Esau from those promises also and chose to bless Jacob (Israel) and his descendants instead.

You might be asking: What is the point of all of this? The point is that for the next
2,000 years God chose to deal with just one people upon the earth (Hebrews-Israelites-Jews); and in doing so He gave them His Scriptures (the Oracles of God); His Prophets; His Priests; His Kings (the kingdom of heaven) – all to the EXCLUSION of any other scriptures, prophets, priests, and kings (or any other people – for that matter).
Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Of the 66 Books of the Holy Bible at least 64 were written by Hebrews-Israelites-Jews. The 39 Books of the Old Testament were all written by Hebrews-Israelites-Jews. Of the 27 Books of the New Testament 25 were written by Hebrews-Israelites-Jews (with Luke, the physician being the only possible exception). The Bible is a peculiarly Jewish Book, and that no one can deny! And contrary to what we Christians believe, most of The Book is about the Holy God of the Hebrews (Jews-Israelites); and about Hebrew Scriptures; their Hebrew Prophets; their Hebrew Priests; and their Hebrew Kings and the “kingdom”.

Just an “interesting” comment: All of the signs, wonders, and miracles that God has performed in the Bible (through a person), have been performed by Hebrews (Jew-Israelites). This is true both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. I do not know of a single Gentile New Testament Christian that performed any signs, wonders, and miracles, or who was said to have possessed these extraordinary powers.

#2. Did you notice something? For approximately 2,000 years God dealt with certain individual men according to conscience; and then for approximately 2,000 years God dealt with the Hebrews-Jews-Israelites (as a Family-Tribe-Nation) who eventually rejected Him and apostatized [John 1:11]; and since then, for approximately 2,000 years God has been dealing with Christians (churches), whose history has been one of gradual unbelief, disobedience, rejection, and eventual apostasy. Has anything caught your attention yet? Notice that nothing ever changes? Over the past 6,000 years, it hasn’t mattered how God has chosen to deal with mankind under all of His Covenants – it always has led to unbelief, sin, rejection, and apostasy! Always – without exception!

#3. The Scriptures state: “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.” [Galatians 4:4-5] The Lord Jesus Christ came in fulfillment of Jewish prophecies; to fulfill Jewish promises; made exclusively to the Jewish people. The Bible says He came: “To redeem them that were under the law, i.e. Jews (Hebrews/Israelites) – NOT Gentiles. And He Himself reaffirmed this when He said: “But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” [Matthew 15:24]

Please notice: According to the testimony of Scripture: the Lord Jesus Christ came exclusively to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (NOT the Gentiles) in order to “redeem them that were under the law” (ONLY the Jews were “under the law”). That is WHY it is so crucial to “rightly divide” the Lord’s words in the Gospels, because most of his words (while He was ministering on earth) were directed to the nation of Israel (Jews/Hebrew/Israelites) and NOT to the church (New Testament blood bought Saints).

If Christians do not “rightly divide” God’s word on this crucial issue, they cannot “make sense” of much of the Gospels and will eventually end up attempting to “HARMONIZE” the word of truth, instead of “rightly DIVIDING the word of truth”.

A careful reading of the Scriptures will reveal:

One of the three main "KEYS" to understanding the Bible is discerning the difference between the Jews; the Gentiles; and the church. [1 Corinthians 10:32]

When it comes to God’s dealings with mankind, I perceive the whole Bible as <> From Adam to Abraham (Conscience); From Abraham to Moses (Abrahamic Covenant); From Moses to Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection (The Law); From Christ’s Resurrection to Stephen’s stoning (Israel’s last “call” as a nation – the “Transition” from God dealing exclusively with his people (Jews, Hebrews, Israelites) to God turning to the Gentiles and the establishment of the church of God, i.e. the body of Christ (the Age of Grace).

The Old Testament (from Genesis 3:22 – Genesis 11:25) is the story of God dealing with individual men {for approximately 2,000 years} according to “CONSCIENCE”.

And then (still in the Old Testament - from Genesis 11:26 - Malachi 4:6) is the continuous story of God the FATHER offering Himself to His people (the Jews - for approximately 1,600 years ) and being rejected.

And after approximately 400 years of SILENCE – (and specifically in the four Gospels) is the story of God the SON offering Himself for 3 1/2 years (exclusively) to His people (the Jews) and being rejected.

And from Acts Chapter 1 through Acts Chapter 7– We have God the HOLY SPIRIT offering Himself (through the persons and testimony of His disciples) exclusively to His people (the Jews) and their rejection of Him (by rejecting the Apostles - whom He was living in). Only AFTER God's people (the Jews) rejected the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (the entire Godhead) did God turn to the Gentiles.From Acts Chapter 1 through Acts Chapter 6we see a continual appeal (exclusively to the nation of Israel) on the part of the Apostles to get the nation of Israel to repent of killing their Messiah & King and, conditioned on the nation of Israel’s “repentance”, they are promised Christ would return SOON! The stoning of Stephen [Acts Chapter 7] is a "turning point" in Scripture; for, immediately after his death God turned to the Gentiles (First the Samaritans -Acts Chapter 8; and then the Gentiles Acts chapter 10; and finally the call to the Apostle of the Gentiles, the Apostle Paul, and the establishment of the New Testament church - a "mystery" to all of the Prophets, priests, and even to those disciples that walked with Jesus - Luke 18:31-34) Luke 18:34And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. {None of His disciples understood the "Gospel" - NOT until after Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, (and not even “fully” then - until the “mystery” of the church was revealed to the Apostle Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles) because "these things" were "HID" from them!}

The following is an extremely short overview of this “transition period”:

Acts Chapter 1 through Chapter 7 = the period of time where the Holy Spirit appeals to the whole nation of Israel (through the apostles preaching) to repent of killing their Messiah and King (Acts Chapter 7 ends with the stoning {martyrdom} of Steven).

Acts Chapter 8 = God begins to call the Gentiles - the Samaritans first {part Jewish} and then a Jewish Proselyte {the Ethiopian Eunuch}.

Acts Chapter 9 = the conversion and call of "Saul" - later called "Paul" (who became the Apostle to the Gentiles).

Acts Chapters 10-11 = God cutting the nation of Israel off {because of their unbelief and their rejection of the Apostles "REPORT"}; and (through the preaching of the Apostle Peter – Acts 10) His turning to the Gentiles, i.e. the beginning of the inclusion of the Gentiles, (not just Samaritans {part Jews} or Gentile proselytes to Judaism), within the household of God by BELIEF in the Lord Jesus Christ

Acts Chapter 12 = the beginning of the “shift” of the center of Christianity (from Jerusalem to Antioch) “And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.”[Acts 11:26]; and a “shift” in emphasis from ministry of the Apostle Peter (who had “apostleship of the circumcision” – Galatians 2:7-8) - to the ministry of the Apostle Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles - Romans 11:13; Galatians 2:7-8; 1Timothy 2:7; 2Timothy 1:11); and with it, a “shift” away from the Jews to the Gentiles.

I see the New Testament as the complete "Testimony" of and about our Lord Jesus Christ. The Gospels = God's testimony to Christ's earthly "ministry" (almost exclusively to the Jews); The Acts = Christ's return to His Father and His working (through the Holy Spirit) using His Apostles and Prophets (servants & ministers) to establish HIS church; The Apostles Letters or "Epistles" (especially Paul's) = WHY He came; WHAT He accomplished; and HOW He accomplished it. In other words the Gospels are a PICTURE or illustration of the Lord Jesus Christ's life and ministry here on earth; and the rest of the New Testament is a COMMENTARY about Him, His Life, His Ministry and the fact that He is coming back (Revelation and the rest of the New Testament prophecies.) In other words, the whole of the New Testament is all about THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!


Did the Apostle Peter (or any of the other Apostles or Disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ) preach the “Gospel of the Grace of God” in Acts Chapters 1-7?

And the answer is unequivocally NO! Acts is a transitional Book - going from the “Kingdom” to the church. What takes place in the beginning of Acts is NOT the Gospel of the Grace of God, but an extension of the Gospel of the Kingdom (an offer by God to send the Lord Jesus back IF the nation of Israel will repent of killing their Messiah & King.)

All words in BLUE are ONLY in relation to the nation of Israel {JewsHebrews - Israelites}

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: {JEWS}
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; {JEWISH PROPHECY – FOR JEWS}
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: {JEWISH PROPHECY – FOR JEWS}
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: {JEWISH PROPHECY – FOR JEWS}
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: {JEWISH PROPHECY}
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: {JEWISH PROPHECY}
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. {JEWISH PROPHECY – FOR JEWS}
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: {JEWS}
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: {JEWS}
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: {JEWISH PROPHECY – FOR JEWS}
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. {JEWISH PROPHECY – FOR JEWS}
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. {JEWS}
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. {JEWS}
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; {JEWISH PROPHECY – FOR JEWS}
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. {JEWISH PROPHECY – FOR JEWS}
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. {JEWS}
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. {JEWISH PROPHECY – FOR JEWS}
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, {JEWISH PROPHECY – FOR JEWS}
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. {JEWISH PROPHECY – FOR JEWS}
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. {ONLY JEWS - WHERE is the “Gospel” of the Grace of God in this?}
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? {ONLY JEWS}
38 Then Peter said unto them,
Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. {ONLY JEWS – Repent of WHAT? For killing their Messiah! WHY the "remission of sins" – for the murder of their King! Is this the “way” we (Gentiles) receive the “gift” of the Holy Ghost today? – I trow NOT!}
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. {ONLY JEWS}
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. {ONLY JEWS}
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. {ONLY JEWS}
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. {ONLY JEWS}
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. {ONLY JEWS}
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; {ONLY JEWS}
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. {ONLY JEWS}
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, { in the temple? - ONLY JEWS}
47 Praising God, and having favour with
all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. {all the people? - ONLY JEWS}

In Acts Chapter 2 Look at WHO is speaking (Peter - a Jew). Look at WHO he is speaking to (“ye men of Judea and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem”; “ye men of Israel; men and brethren; all the house of Israel). Read the words carefully - This is a Jewish message about the fulfilling of a Jewish Old Testament prophesy (prophesied by a Jewish prophet {Joel} addressed to the nation of Israel; or a Jewish King {the patriarch - David} testifying to the glory of the risen Lord - ALL Jews or Proselyte Jews).

In Acts Chapter 3 again the Apostle Peter is speaking again, to WHOM?: "he answered unto the people ye men of
Israel," ("the people" - what people? = "ye men of Israel") and Peter goes on "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go." [Acts 3:13] Abraham – Isaac - Jacob? The God of whose fathers? Ye delivered up? This is clearly a Jewish message addressed to Jews - NOT the church. I could go on chapter after chapter until we come to Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles - the Apostle to whom the “mysteries” were revealed – one of which was the “mystery” of the church).

If you want, we can run through Acts Chapters 3 through 7 and check on WHO is speaking and to WHOM he is speaking TO. And we can check on the “content” of WHAT & WHO & WHY & WHERE he is speaking about. But I can assure you that neither Peter or Stephen was preaching the “Gospel of the Grace of God”, they were preaching “repentance” to the nation of Israel. They were urging the Jews (as a nation) to REPENT of murdering their Messiah & King. And they were promising (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) that if they (the nation of israel) would repent of killing the Lord of Glory and turn to Him, that He would RETURN - SOON! The Gospel of the Grace of God (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) is NOT in view here. There may be some elements of that “Gospel”, but it hadn’t been revealed yet, because God (the Holy Spirit – in the persons of the Apostles & Disciples) had to make “one last bona fide offer to the nation of Israel (and be rejected), before He could legitimately turn to the Gentiles.

Soon after the death of Stephen, God called the Apostle Paul and revealed several "mysteries" to him, one of which was that the Gentiles could (by believing the Gospel) become fellow heirs of the promise of God made to Abraham. All of the benefits of the New Covenant became available for all those who BELIEVED the Gospel (Paul's Gospel) whether they were a Jew or a Gentile, that is all those who RECEIVED Christ and who became the sons of God (i.e. born again).

There are so many Christians; and so many Christian Sects and Denominations that have no idea about this “transitional period” in the Book of Acts. There are so many Cults that take verses out of the Book of Acts and twist them around and make them SAY SOMETHING that they DO NOT SAY. The old saying goes: “If you are going to break your neck in the Scriptures, you’ll break it in Matthew, Acts, or Hebrews” still holds true today.