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Paladin54 03-13-2008 08:32 PM

Calvinism and Arminianism
 
Your thoughts?

atlas 03-13-2008 08:43 PM

Paladin54,

Can you ask a better question brother? That question is just very open.


Atlas

Paladin54 03-13-2008 09:19 PM

lol Sorry, I had to post and get off quickly.

Can a loving God predestinate people regarding their salvation? While it is impossible for God to allow any unsaved man condemned by the Law, would he refuse a man the chance to get salvation? I struggle with this thought. I do not accept predestination, but I want to hear your thoughts on the (much more specific) of: Can a loving God force someone to never gain salvation?

Diligent 03-13-2008 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladin54 (Post 1695)
Can a loving God predestinate people regarding their salvation? While it is impossible for God to allow any unsaved man condemned by the Law, would he refuse a man the chance to get salvation?


No.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men
Quote:

I struggle with this thought. I do not accept predestination,
You have to accept predestination, as Paul explicitly says it. What you do not have to accept is a theological system that redefines what is predestined. See this post where I explain my understanding of predestination.

Paladin54 03-14-2008 07:07 AM

Of course Brandon, I forget that predestination was "redefined". It just feels like the more spiritually developed people at my school and church take this theology, so I was gettinga little intimidated....foolish me.

This thread is sufficient for me-had I known it was discussed on another forum...

Thanks again, Brother Brandon.

sting of truth 03-14-2008 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladin54 (Post 1693)
Your thoughts?

all 5 points of calvinism go against the bible in some way shape or form. and on the other side much of armenianism is the same way..

i don't follow man's doctrine.. i just follow the bible, and i don't use private interpretations of it, i let the bible speak for itself.

jerry 03-14-2008 07:20 AM

Here's a link that might answer some questions:

What Is Biblical Predestination?

liz 03-14-2008 11:11 AM

Arminianism -vs- calvinism
 
I joined my local Baptist Church 3 years and with which I remained for the next year and a half. After a while I realized that the pastor of this church, along with many other members, were comfortable calling themselves "calvinists". This caused me to start studying the subject of calvinism intensely so I would have the proper tools to challenge these members (including the pastor) who called themselves calvinists. The best book (and simplest too) and the most thorough book I ever read on this subject is "What Love is this??", by Dave Hunt, from Oregon.
Contrary to what Calvin taught, our loving God wants everyone to be saved from hell and is not willing that any should perish (as His Word says.). Liz

liz 03-14-2008 11:18 AM

It is very possible that many people who call themselves "calvinists" do so only because they believe in the doctrine of OSAS (once saved always saved). Yet, we do not have to call ourselves "calvinists" to believe that once we are saved, we are saved forever, as Jesus himself said:" NOthing shall pluck them(my sheep) out of my hand"

Diligent 03-14-2008 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liz (Post 1718)
It is very possible that many people who call themselves "calvinists" do so only because they believe in the doctrine of OSAS (once saved always saved). Yet, we do not have to call ourselves "calvinists" to believe that once we are saved, we are saved forever, as Jesus himself said:" NOthing shall pluck them(my sheep) out of my hand"

Calvinism's fifth tenet is "perseverance of the saints." While Calvinisim has it right that believers cannot lose their salvation, it is wrong to put the emphasis on perseverance -- the promise is preservation.

jerry 03-14-2008 11:50 AM

Right you are, Brandon!

chette777 03-14-2008 11:32 PM

see next post

chette777 03-14-2008 11:33 PM

Calvinism and Arminianism are two extremes of interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. Neither is correct so arguing over these doctrines of men and putting your time into it is a waist. you are better off witnessing to the lost than arguing over doubtful things.

grace to me 03-15-2008 12:08 AM

What is the state of natural man ?
lets look at some verses to find out what his state is .

Eph.2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Col.2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Rom.3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom.10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
According to God's Word we are dead , there is none that doeth good. Now can a dead man exercise faith ? how can he do anything good if he is dead ?
if faith cometh by hearing , How can a dead man hear? It's obvious the new birth has to occur before we can believe , because faith is a fruit of the Spirit.
How can we be filled with the Spirit then be born again and recieve the Holy Spirit again , If our belief causes the new birth as many claim ?

GAL.5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith ,

How can we be dead , and none that doeth good , but have the fruit of the Spirit , That is contradicting it's self . The new birth has to come before we believe.

Jn.5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

He that heareth [ present tense] and believeth [ present tense ] [ hath ] [ past completed action ] if you are hearing and believing youve already got eternal life . he is passed from death unto life . he's already passed from death unto life.
.
ive heard alot of calvinists say there is nothing you have to do to be saved eternally , all you have to do is believe . notice how contradictory that is , they just got done saying there was nothing to do , then the next thing they say is you got to believe. its not of him that willeth . Our belief is a fruit of the Spirit not something we do that causes us to be saved , if we believe its evidence that we have already been saved , its the effect of our salvation not the cause.

Rom.9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Paul says it is not our will , BUT , but is a contrasting word , he contrasts the first part of the verse with the last part , Its of God that showeth mercy. if we say it is our will that gets us salvation , then grace is no more grace , because you are doing something to get salvation , and that is contrary to grace which is a free gift . Its of God , his grace , his mercy.

James1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

its not our will its God's. Many will take this next verse and say God loves the Whole world without exception , that all you have to do is believe and you will be eternally saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

well lets look at the word world in scripture.

Lk.2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
now is this all the world without exception or the world that Caesar Augustus and rome was in control of ? did he tax the indians in north america or the people on hawaii ect. its obvious that he taxed those that he ruled over not the whole world without exception.

Jn.14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
is this the whole world without exception? obviously its not , the world here is obviously talking about the non- elect.

JN.17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world , but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
here we have two contrasting groups , scripture uses the word world sometimes to mean the whole world without exception and sometimes as a certain group in the world .
Jn.17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world , even as I am not of the world .
here we have the world that hated them but they were not of it, the world that hated them [ non-elect] the ones that are not of this world [ elect ]
there are many more verses showing the word world isn't always all inclusive.to say God loves the whole world without exception would contradict other scripture,

Rom.9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
before they were born God hated Esau , you see the world God loves is his elect , many will take the whosoever believeth in him , and say , see all you have to do is believe
and you will get eternal life . this verse doesn't prove that at all , you have to add the word get etc. in order to come to that conclusion, it says that whosoever believeth [ present tense ] has eternal life. it merely states a fact . not a way to obtain eternal life as many teach. your faith doesn't cause you to get eternal life , it is just evidence that you already have it . its by the obediece of one , it doesn't take the obedience of the preacher to preach the Word , then the sinner to have faith , then the obedience of Christ that would be the obedience of three. Scripture plainly teaches its by the obedience of one , many will be made righteous.

Rom.5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
we are saved by grace not something we do , faith is something we do , its a work. JN.6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. believing is a good work , a fruit of the Spirit.

we are saved through faith , and that faith is not of ourselves , it is a gift of God.
WHAT IS THIS GIFT ? It's the gift of Gods Son , We are justified by faith , is it our faith that justifies us ?-- all the modern versions teach this because they change the word of in Rom.3:22 and replace it with the word in making it justification by works.

Rom.3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
the faith of Jesus Christ is the faith spoken of in Eph.2:8
Scripture isn't of any private interpretation it means what it says on the page , you have to look at the words and define them , take them by thier primary meaning unless it causes contradiction with other scripture then you look at secondary definitions , look at the tenses are the past , present , or future etc. God promised to preserve it right down to the jot and tittle , so we can completely trust it .
jim

grace to me 03-15-2008 12:21 AM

sorry , already posted

Biblestudent 03-15-2008 12:28 AM

Rom.3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

According to the verse, the righteousness is by "faith of Jesus Christ". This is not man's faith. This is saving faith and it is Christ's faith. This faith is given as a gift (Eph. 2:8) to those who "believe".

In other words, this faith cannot and will not be given to those who do not "believe"; but those who "believe" will be given this "gift" of "faith of Jesus Christ".

That means then that if a person wants to be saved, he has to have the "faith of Jesus Christ"; but he will never have it, not until he believes.

Now if he believes, he will be saved -- not by his own personal faith, but by the "faith of Christ".

Biblestudent 03-15-2008 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry (Post 1713)
Here's a link that might answer some questions:

What Is Biblical Predestination?

Thanks for that link Jerry! We get the doctrine of predestination from the Bible and not from Calvin.

grace to me 03-15-2008 12:40 AM

According to the verse, the righteousness is by "faith of Jesus Christ". This is not man's faith. This is saving faith and it is Christ's faith. This faith is given as a gift (Eph. 2:8) to those who "believe".

In other words, this faith cannot and will not be given to those who do not "believe"; but those who "believe" will be given this "gift" of "faith of Jesus Christ".
i agree

That means then that if a person wants to be saved,
it is not of him that willeth.

if a person believes that is evidence that he already has the Holy Spirit ,

We get the doctrine of predestination from the Bible and not from Calvin.
AMEN
jim

Biblestudent 03-15-2008 12:55 AM

Is there only one "elect" in the Bible?
Who is the elect of Romans 9? Jesus, angels, Jacob or Israel, Gentiles, the world, or the Church?
Are all the "elect" saved? Is Israel "elect"? Is every Israelite "elect"? Was all the Twelve "elect"/"chosen"/"ordained"?

King James Bible: For God so loved the "world".
New Elect Bible: For God so loved the "elect".

King James Bible: Love not the "world".
New Elect Bible: Love not the "elect".

King James Bible: "Jacob" (Israel) have I loved.
New Elect Bible: "All the elect" have I loved.

It is clear that Israel as a nation is in view in Romans 9, not the Church.

Biblestudent 03-15-2008 12:59 AM

"Not of him that willeth"

What is the will of God?

"To make ALL MEN see" (KJB)
"That ALL should come to repentance" -- God is not willing that any should perish (KJB)

New Elect Bible - to make the elect see
New Elect Bible - that the elect should come to repentance

liz 03-15-2008 02:24 AM

calvinism and arminianism
 
Something that has greatly stumbled me when I was at this local baptist church where the pastor was a follower of Calvin, is this: Surely, this pastor must have known what kind of person Calvin was. Besise being of a great intellect and having written many so-called wonderful works, and beside having become extremely powerful in Geneva, Calvin also used this power to persecute many people who dared disagree with him. From what I read, Calvin was a cruel man and did not have the fruits ofthe Spirit in his life. Jesus said: "By their fruit you will know them".
Predestination is a word and a subject that is in God's Word, but why would anyone insist on studying this subject from such a man as Calvin who, amongst many of his false doctrines, insisted, even after his so-called conversion, that salvation came through baptism into "the church". WHich church might that be??? His, of course. Certainly not the Anabaptists' church. These were such simple people that, most likely, they were gathering in their own homes, and did not have official "church buildings". Liz

grace to me 03-15-2008 03:59 AM

"To make ALL MEN see" (KJB)
"That ALL should come to repentance" -- God is not willing that any should perish (KJB)

2PET.3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This is written to the elect , the usward in this verse is refering to chapter 1 verse 1 , like precious faith.

the [ that all should come to repentance ] is the elect also, the like precious faith.
jim

grace to me 03-15-2008 04:11 AM

Who is the elect of Romans 9? Jesus, angels, Jacob or Israel, Gentiles, the world, or the Church?

Rom.9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen [ jews ] according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel [ children of the promise ] , which are of Israel [ the nation of israel ]:

verse 7 explains this just because they are abrahams seed or jews they aren't children ,[its not because of their lineage ]
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

chette777 03-15-2008 07:46 AM

grace

I am not Calvinist and I believe you are saved by faith alone. after the cross God has placed all people in unbelief rom. 11:32.

the only sinyu can go to hell for in unbelief. John 3:16 In the Gospel of Grace it says whosoever believeth. also it says in John he that believeth has everlasting life he who believeth not is condenmed already. all of us were condemned in unbelief before we believed.

Read the Book Grace By Lewis Sperry Chafer. is in not a Calvinist either. as I said they Calvinism and Arminianism Are two extreme theologies invented by men. better off reading your KJV.

No man need will go to hell because of the sins of Adultery, murder, lying, cheating, fornication, covetousness etc... because Jesus Christ was teh Propitiation for all the worlds sin. the only sin the condemns one to hell is unbelief.

chette777 03-15-2008 07:52 AM

hey Guys romans is the complete doctrine of God Grace. the term elect is not mentioned in chapter nine. the only time it is used it is in Chapter eight and it include Believing Jews and Gentiles. for they are the one to be conformed to the image of Christ.

that is not for the previous dispensation or the ones to come

We were chosen IN HIM (Eph 1:4) that is Gods foreknowledge at work he chose those he Knew would beleive to Verses 5-13

grace to me 03-15-2008 08:35 AM

chette 777
also it says in John he that believeth has everlasting life he who believeth not is condenmed already

this verse : Jn.3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
just states the fact that if he is believing present tense , he's not condemned.

the only sin the condemns one to hell is unbelief
so i take it that you believe babies and people that can't believe are going to hell .

1 Tim.1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Paul was saved in his unbelief. through God's mercy.

Rom.3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

grace to me 03-15-2008 09:07 AM

We were chosen IN HIM (Eph 1:4) that is Gods foreknowledge at work he chose those he Knew would beleive to Verses 5-13

in order to come to this conclusion you have to add words to the Word of God , God's Word is not of private interpretation , it says foreknowledge it doesn't say of what , this isn't a proof text it just states foreknowledge ,
let's look at some scriptures that mention foreknowledge.

Acts 2::22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

1 Pet.1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

both of these accounts talk about foreknowing the person not what he does , don't get me wrong i believe God is all knowing , but if we have to add words to God's Word then it becomes private interpretation.

[ hey Guys romans is the complete doctrine of God Grace. the term elect is not mentioned in chapter nine. ]
Rom.9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Romans is not the complete doctrine of God's grace , all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine ,reproof , instruction in righteousness.

jerry 03-15-2008 03:15 PM

Quote:

It's obvious the new birth has to occur before we can believe , because faith is a fruit of the Spirit.
...The new birth has to come before we believe.
Nothing like contradicting the Bible! If your foundation is off, the rest of your structure will be as well.

The Bible teaches faith comes first, then regeneration:

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

That passage says when we receive Christ we are born again.

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Being born again through the Word of God (ie. the Gospel) - that makes our new birth dependent upon our belief in the Saviour.

jerry 03-15-2008 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 1755)
the only sin the condemns one to hell is unbelief.

No, that is not completely true. All our sins condemn us to Hell - unbelief is what sends us there.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This includes the second death.

Ephesians 5:5-6 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

grace to me 03-16-2008 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry (Post 1774)
Nothing like contradicting the Bible! If your foundation is off, the rest of your structure will be as well.

The Bible teaches faith comes first, then regeneration:

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

That passage says when we receive Christ we are born again.

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Being born again through the Word of God (ie. the Gospel) - that makes our new birth dependent upon our belief in the Saviour.


Jerry on the passage in JN.1 :12 this verse just states if we believe we are born of God , not a way to get born , in the following verse this is cleared up , its not our will,Jn. 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
to answer your second scripture turn to ;
Jn.1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
This is Jesus Christ you can see this by verse 14 and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, the greek word for Word is Logos, now we will go to your second passage 1 Pet.1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, [ the word of God spoken of here is the same greek word logos Jesus Christ ] which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
in verse 25 we start out with the word but contrasting to what had just been spoken and the greek word for word in this verse is rhema and we can plainly see by the verse that this is talking about the written Word.
Paul on the damascus road is an example how his belief didn't cause him to get saved for he was persecuting Christians , he did it in unbelief , he didn't believe till God by his will saved him.
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
i hope that answers some of your questions
jim

chette777 03-17-2008 08:54 PM

grace 2 me

no I did not say that. anyone that can't not make the freewill choice God has a plan for them different. Babies don't go to hell they are not old enough to be accountable for thier choice and mental retards would be under the same rule. God does not tell us how he wll deal withthem. do not interpret my words with your toughts.

Beleif alone faith alone is how a person is saved today, kept today and brought into the fullness of the image of Christ.

jerry

if you think your sins send you to hell then what you are telling God is his Son was not sufficient enough to pay the price for your sins. the judgment of our sins was carried out on the cross. Christians will be judge for whatever they do in this body whether good or bad and that affects their rewards. but you can never be judge for the sins Christ died for. unbelievers will go to hell for not believing and they will pay for all their sins for eternity because they did not accept Gods judicial payment of the blood of Christ. but they got to hell because of unbelief not because of their sins of drunkeness or adultry, lying, stealing or any other that unbelief.

jerry 03-17-2008 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 1842)
if you think your sins send you to hell then what you are telling God is his Son was not sufficient enough to pay the price for your sins. the judgment of our sins was carried out on the cross.

Perhaps you need to go back and reread what I said. I didn't say that I - as a Christian - would go to Hell. I said our sins make us guilty of hell, deserving of hell - but those in Christ will never go there.

Quote:

unbelievers will go to hell for not believing and they will pay for all their sins for eternity because they did not accept Gods judicial payment of the blood of Christ. but they got to hell because of unbelief not because of their sins of drunkeness or adultry, lying, stealing or any other that unbelief.
I just gave you some verses that quite clearly state that the lost go to Hell for their sins. Don't explain them away or contradict them - they are straight out of the Bible.

grace to me 03-17-2008 11:25 PM

quote
[ Beleif alone faith alone is how a person is saved today, kept today and brought into the fullness of the image of Christ. ]

Did Paul's faith [ will ] save him or was it God that gave him a new heart?
HE WAS IN UNBELIEF
Your faith is a work we aren't saved by works .

ACTS 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

faith alone is not how a person gets saved today , show me scripture .
your leaving Christ totally out of the salvation .

Rom. 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

they have not all obeyed the gospel[ FOR ] [EXPLAINING WHAT HE MEANT WHEN HE SAID THEY WEREN'T OBEYING ] Who hath believed our report?
When they weren't believing they weren't obeying, believing the gospel is an act of obedience , thats why our believing cannot be what justifies us , its by the obedience of one , and that one is Jesus Christ.
jim

George 03-18-2008 04:11 AM

"Did Paul's faith [ will ] save him or was it God that gave him a new heart?"

Where in the scripture has God given us (Christians) a "NEW" heart?

atlas 03-18-2008 04:25 AM

grace to me,

Quote:

Your faith is a work we aren't saved by works
That is not true. God even gives us the faith to become saved. We are saved by works, just not our works. His works saved us.

Quote:

Rom. 10:17

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
We do not even have the faith to get saved. the faith we need to get saved comes from God not ourselves. God gives us all of the tools we need to be saved. That is why Jesus came and died and why God gave us his word.

One day we will all give account for the our works. We will be paid accordingly, however when it comes to salvation I will not be judged by my works. I will judged by His perfect works for salvation. His works will get me to heaven, my awards depend on my works. Trust me we will all be in bad shape when God judges our works and tries them by fire. Thank God that His salvation works will pas the test.

1. He gave his Son.

2. He gave us the word.

3. he gave us the ability to understand his word

4. He gave us the faith from his word.

We are saved by works, just not our works. We are saved by the finished works of Jesus Christ. Our works can not save us, his works can and will save us. We are also sealed till the day of redemption by his works. That is why I can not lose my salvation. It is not my salvation to lose. it is his salvation. We have to accept his works by the faith he gives us. It is that simple my friend. What are his works? He lived a perfect life and took my place and died for sins that I commented. It was the just for the unjust. His death covered ALL of my sins. All I can say is thank you Jesus for dieing fore me and paying a debt I could not pay. My sin debt has been paid in full, and paid by Jesus and his works on the cross. That is why I am going to heaven and the only reason why. If you go to heaven that is the only reason you'll be there also.

Atlas

grace to me 03-18-2008 10:24 AM

atlas ;
Rom. 10:17

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

so if the sinners state is dead in tresspasses and sin , how can a dead man hear ? Doesn't the new birth come first?

vs. 17 is a conclusion made from vs. 14-16
when a person is born again , God gives that individual in the new birth the ability to keep his commandments and we are told in 1 JN.3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
EZEK.11:19-20 says what God does in the new birth ,
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
God gives us the new heart so that we are able to keep his commandments ,
one of which is to believe on the name of Jesus Christ.
God in the new birth gives you the ability to believe , the preaching of the Word of God gives the opportunity to excercise the ability.
We cannot hear God's Words if we are not of God. JN.8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
if we don't have the ability to believe we will not see the truth of the gospel,
notice what Paul said in 2 COR. 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Notice here that the gospel here is referred to as a shining light.
If an individual has no faith he doesn't see it because he's blind ,He does'nt have the ability to see, so that understanding it like that we draw this conclusion , that faith is to the Word of God as sight is to light , sight is the ability to see , but if there's no light no matter how good your vision is you will not see , every child of God thats been born again has sight , but he can't see till the light shines , so the purpose of the gospel is to provide the light so the born again child of God with sight can see.
believing is a commandment are we saved by commandment keeping ?

Diligent 03-18-2008 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grace to me (Post 1855)
so if the sinners state is dead in tresspasses and sin , how can a dead man hear ? Doesn't the new birth come first?

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
By the way, the Calvinist doctrine of "irresistible grace," if true, would mean that everyone is saved, since Titus 2:11 plainly states that it has appeared to every man.

atlas 03-18-2008 11:35 AM

grace to me,

Quote:

so if the sinners state is dead in tresspasses and sin , how can a dead man hear ? Doesn't the new birth come first?
As Diligent has posted,

Quote:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
God has did all of the work needed to get folks saved. He gave his son, the Word and faith. The Holy Spirit deal with the hearts of man.

Do not forget this.

Quote:

2 Pet. 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God wants to save everyone.

Atlas

grace to me 03-19-2008 07:33 AM

Diligent ;
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

the all in this verse doesn't mean all without exception it explains it later in the verse , as many as the Lord shall call , Gods word uses the word all in other places to not mean all inclusive ,

1COR.9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

All in this verse obviously doesn't mean all things without exception or you could say Paul became an idolator to the idolators or a sodomite to the sodomites etc. ,its obvious in this verse all is spoken of in a limited sense .

2 COR.13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all . Amen.

Paul is addressing the Corinthian Church here , the all spoke of here is the all he was addressing not the whole world without exception.

EPH.1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The all things in this verse is obviously not all inclusive , he doesn't work any iniquity after the counsel of his own will etc.


Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

to take this verse as a proof text the word all would have to be defined ,
it could be all the people Titus was pastoring , it could be all belivers, etc.

Atlas:2 Pet. 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This verse is written to like precious faith chapter 1 verse 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
this is another instance where the word all is not all inclusive , but a certain group.
this is written to believers the us-ward and any and all in 2 PET.3:9 refer to believers . i hope that clears it up for you.

jim

atlas 03-19-2008 08:43 AM

Jim,

We need to break it on down man. We need to stop beating around the bush and tell it like it is.

Are you saying God wants some folks to go to hell? Are you saying it is his will that some people could not even be saved if they wanted to be saved?

God has two wills.

1. Perfect will.

2. Permissive will

I think God wants everyone to be saved and go to heaven. Christ died for all. However God knows most folks will end up in hell. That is not his perfect will. My main issue with the Calvinist is they do not believe in God permissive will. I believe God will let someone go to hell in his permissive but not perfect will. If anyone goes to hell they go to hell out of God's perfect will.

I myself have been out of God's perfect will. I have not lived as well as I should have at times. I smoked for about 2 years after I was saved. That was not God's perfect will. He let me do it, but it was not his perfect will. It was God's permissive will that I smoked. I did stop smoking, God helped me stop. He did not make me stop. God lets man have lots of freedom inside of his permissive will. I often am out of God's perfect will. As is everyone else. That is why I have to ask for Gods forgiveness often. We all are the same.

Salvation is the same way. God wanted me to be saved. That was his perfect will for me to be saved. If I had not chose to be saved God would have let me go to hell. It was all on me. He gave me everything I needed to be saved but I had to accept it.


Atlas


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