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greenbear 07-13-2009 07:50 PM

Who is Hebrews written to?
 
I was trying to find evidence of when Hebrews was written and I came across a site that looked great for the first couple of paragraphs, using the phrase "rightly dividing" and the author was of the opinion that Paul was the author of Hebrews. Then he started talking about how 95% of original manuscripts put the general epistles except for Hebrews, after Acts, then place Hebrews after II Thessalonians and before I Timothy. He doesn't go into manuscript evidence but I assume it is largely not from the received text. He states his reasons why he believes Hebrews was written during his first Roman imprisonment and his reasons make some sense. He argues that Hebrews was actually written to gentiles. He gives some fairly decent arguments for that, you would have to read the article. I'm not sure how he gets past the title of the book, though! I don't think he's right. Another possibility is that Hebrews is written to the Jews in churches in areas where Paul had authority over gentile churches and perhaps piggybacked to that is the future application to the tribulation church, if there is such a thing. The author's conclusion is that the book of Hebrews should be included in the "Mystery of God" revealed to Paul. Even if the author is correct on when and who Hebrews is written by, I don't believe that the order of the books of the Bible have to be presented in chronological order. Hebrews seems not to fit with Paul's Mystery. I've never understood the book of Hebrews as I should.

If you check this guys website he's all about restoring the Original Bible
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d040901.htm#_ftn4

kevinvw 07-14-2009 12:56 AM

First of all, the book of Hebrews is written to Hebrews because that's who it addresses in the name, just like the book of Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, etc. It's foolish to say that it was written to gentiles unless you don't believe in an inspired inerrant Bible which this man obviously doesn't.

Another thing is that he seems to have found the "originals" which have been lost for 2000 years. Our Bible does not need to be reordered and is in perfect order according to pre-millennial theology which is the only correct way to interpret the Bible. Hebrews was more than likely, just like James, written before any doctrine to the church was revealed to Paul by Jesus Christ.

chette777 07-14-2009 02:18 AM

Ditto written to Hebrews.

I place it where it is as a transitional book from church age to tribulation.

lots of application for the church. be careful as there is at least 8 times the Author(possibly Paul) that has what looks like a kingdom Gospel twist to it.

Hebrews is a wonderful and exciting book to study.

Brother Tim 07-14-2009 07:13 AM

Kevin stated:
Quote:

First of all, the book of Hebrews is written to Hebrews because that's who it addresses in the name,
My Bible reads:
Quote:

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Nowhere in this introduction are the recipients named. The "Title" of the book is not inspired Scripture. It was assigned that title by men as a way of delineating sections of Scripture. There is a difference.

By the way, the Author is the Holy Ghost, not Paul or Timothy or whoever else men speculate wrote it. If God did not put the writer's name in the book, then we do not need to try to figure it out. It is unimportant.

greenbear 07-14-2009 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevinvw (Post 23893)
First of all, the book of Hebrews is written to Hebrews because that's who it addresses in the name, just like the book of Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, etc. It's foolish to say that it was written to gentiles unless you don't believe in an inspired inerrant Bible which this man obviously doesn't.

Another thing is that he seems to have found the "originals" which have been lost for 2000 years. Our Bible does not need to be reordered and is in perfect order according to pre-millennial theology which is the only correct way to interpret the Bible. Hebrews was more than likely, just like James, written before any doctrine to the church was revealed to Paul by Jesus Christ.

Yes, it's obviously written to Hebrews, hence it's name! He sure has more respect for the corrupt manuscript streams than the received text and the KJB. I couldn't agree more that our Bible is in the correct order. I don't see how it could be written before Paul's ministry to the gentiles started, though.

greenbear 07-14-2009 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 23894)
Ditto written to Hebrews.

I place it where it is as a transitional book from church age to tribulation.

lots of application for the church. be careful as there is at least 8 times the Author(possibly Paul) that has what looks like a kingdom Gospel twist to it.

Hebrews is a wonderful and exciting book to study.

I had never heard of a tribulational church before I read you mention it. Definitely not church doctrine after Paul's Mystery. I look forward to studying it I would just like to get an idea when Paul wrote it, and to understand for myself all of the reasons most teachers I agree with say Paul wrote it.

chette777 07-14-2009 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 23898)
By the way, the Author is the Holy Ghost, not Paul or Timothy or whoever else men speculate wrote it.

Of course the whole Bible is Authored by God via inspiration everyone knows that.

It is important to know why God did not allow the author (the person God used to pen it) of this book to be known. nothing is unimportant in God's word

I am not sure that my facts are correct so I don't want to say this absolute authority. but I think Hebrews is the only book in the Bible that the author (the person God used to pen it) is not known. before you jump and say Job, read Job again there is a place where the author identifies himself.

Title and verse numbers and chapter division by most feel they are just of men. But if God has given us the KJV complete with these titles and divisions and numbering I believe they in that case are inspired and preserved as such for a reason. there is no reason for us not to believe it is Paul as the KJV name says it is Paul

GreenBear,

When you read Hebrews look at the words especially endure to the end, overcome, etc. then read Rev 1-3. I believe these are Jewish tribulation Churches being spoken of in that book of prophecy are also addressed in Hebrews. Not just historical locations that also had Jewish churches in the past. Seeing John was in the spirit on "the Lord's Day" Rev1:10 referring to a future time he writes to churches in a future time. there never was any proof historically that John ever wrote and sent to seven churches that which is written in Rev1-3. but we do have this book of prophecy still yet to be fulfilled and in that time they will need to endure, overcome to receive the reward of life and other benefits.

David Walker does a good job of showing the transitional nature of Hebrews in his book "Dispensatinalism"

now having shared what I believe with Greenbear, I know there are some of you who don't agree but at this moment it is not really up for debate. It is just a statement of a moderate dispensationalist.

greenbear 07-14-2009 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 23898)
Kevin stated:
My Bible reads:
Nowhere in this introduction are the recipients named. The "Title" of the book is not inspired Scripture. It was assigned that title by men as a way of delineating sections of Scripture. There is a difference.

By the way, the Author is the Holy Ghost, not Paul or Timothy or whoever else men speculate wrote it. If God did not put the writer's name in the book, then we do not need to try to figure it out. It is unimportant.

Quote:

The "Title" of the book is not inspired Scripture.
I've always thought of the titles as being preserved or inspired. But I don't know.

Ripdood 07-14-2009 09:12 AM

Quote:

If you check this guys website he's all about restoring the Original Bible
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d040901.htm#_ftn4
Sister Greenbear,

The two men mentioned on the article Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D. and David Sielaff, are connected with an organization called the Worldwide Church of God. They are not as active these days as they used to be. But back in the 1980s they were classified as a cult by mainstream denominations. Herbert w. Armstrong was the founder. They were very good at twisting the facts of the Word of God and making it look very scholarly to accomplish their purposes. They were and are in favor of the new per-versions, because the wording in those works of satan make it easy to prove their unscriptural beliefs. They are still around but not as large or well organized as they once were.

I tried witnessing to one of their members once it was an excercise in chasing word definitions. The same terms we use are defined differently in their beliefs. I planted the seed I am not sure how well it took, I never saw the fellow again.

CKG 07-14-2009 09:26 AM

This book of the Bible tells us
Jesus is superior to the Angels (Hebrews 1)
Jesus is superior to Moses (Hebrews 3)
Jesus is superior to the law (Hebrews 7:19)
Jesus offered a better testament than the old (Hebrews 7:22)
Jesus mediated “a better covenant, which was established upon better promises” (Hebrews 8:6)
Jesus offered a better sacrifice than that of the Levitical priesthood (Hebrews 10:11-12)
Jesus, a priest after the order of Melchisedec, is superior to the Levitical priesthood (Hebrews 7)
so it is appropriately named Hebrews.

CKG 07-14-2009 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKG (Post 23907)
This book of the Bible tells us
Jesus is superior to the Angels (Hebrews 1)
Jesus is superior to Moses (Hebrews 3)
Jesus is superior to the law (Hebrews 7:19)
Jesus offered a better testament than the old (Hebrews 7:22)
Jesus mediated “a better covenant, which was established upon better promises” (Hebrews 8:6)
Jesus offered a better sacrifice than that of the Levitical priesthood (Hebrews 10:11-12)
Jesus, a priest after the order of Melchisedec, is superior to the Levitical priesthood (Hebrews 7)
so it is appropriately named Hebrews.

The book of Hebrews was originally written to keep Jewish believers from the pressure to abandon the Christian faith and go back under the law. It is an excellent witnessing tool now for the Jews, plus if the Jews, who are God’s chosen people, are convinced of their need of Jesus, how much more do the Gentiles need to hear the message so there is application for us. It will be an especially important book to the Jews who are saved during the tribulation when the temple is rebuilt and sacrifices are re-instated.

greenbear 07-14-2009 11:32 AM

Chette,

Thanks for all your good info and thoughts, as usual. The seven churches thing was an eye opener for me. Something's always bothered me about Jesus' words to the seven churches. They definitely didn't line up very well with saved by grace through faith alone.

Jen

greenbear 07-14-2009 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKG (Post 23911)
The book of Hebrews was originally written to keep Jewish believers from the pressure to abandon the Christian faith and go back under the law. It is an excellent witnessing tool now for the Jews, plus if the Jews, who are God’s chosen people, are convinced of their need of Jesus, how much more do the Gentiles need to hear the message so there is application for us. It will be an especially important book to the Jews who are saved during the tribulation when the temple is rebuilt and sacrifices are re-instated.

CKG,
Thanks for sharing your perspective which I completely agree with.
Quote:

It will be an especially important book to the Jews who are saved during the tribulation when the temple is rebuilt and sacrifices are re-instated.
Yes, that's a good point. Much of the history of the church it has appropriated the whole 66 books as written primarily to itself and for itself. I also believe that Hebrews forward is written to tribulation saints not our current dispensation. (The seven churches was something I had never thought about before as not being for the church age.)

greenbear 07-14-2009 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripdood (Post 23906)
Sister Greenbear,

The two men mentioned on the article Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D. and David Sielaff, are connected with an organization called the Worldwide Church of God. They are not as active these days as they used to be. But back in the 1980s they were classified as a cult by mainstream denominations. Herbert w. Armstrong was the founder. They were very good at twisting the facts of the Word of God and making it look very scholarly to accomplish their purposes. They were and are in favor of the new per-versions, because the wording in those works of satan make it easy to prove their unscriptural beliefs. They are still around but not as large or well organized as they once were.

I tried witnessing to one of their members once it was an excercise in chasing word definitions. The same terms we use are defined differently in their beliefs. I planted the seed I am not sure how well it took, I never saw the fellow again.

Brother Ripdood,

Thanks for the info about the WWCG connection. It makes perfect sense why this author(s) is looking to place the general epistles before the pauline epistles and make Hebrews all about the gentile church and Paul's gospel of grace by faith alone. So they can support their post- trib position and their salvation by works phony baloney.

Brother Tim 07-14-2009 04:34 PM

Folk, if the titles of the books (and chapter & verse divisions) are inspired, they would have existed from the beginning, which they do not. Secondly, there could be no debate (if titles are inspired) as to the WRITER (not author) of Hebrews because (most) KJBs have Paul's name in the title.

Brother Tim 07-14-2009 04:37 PM

There are other books of the Bible in which the WRITER is not identified. Examples: 1 Samuel - 2 Chronicles.

chette777 07-14-2009 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 23928)
Folk, if the titles of the books (and chapter & verse divisions) are inspired, they would have existed from the beginning, which they do not. Secondly, there could be no debate (if titles are inspired) as to the WRITER (not author) of Hebrews because (most) KJBs have Paul's name in the title.

Ok, under that logic let's examine.

If the books of the Bible are inspired then they would of existed from the Beginning, which they do not.

Each book was written under inspiration at a certain time, as each title, chapter and verse was inspired at a certain time. (but I wont be dogmatic with it).

My opinion is if you begin to doubt the KJV in even the smallest area of Preserved inspiration you will begin to doubt other areas of the KJV.

so then we agree not one book of the KJV Bible is without the identification of who the Author is. 65 books have the Author ID'd in the writing itself, while only Hebrews has it ID in the Title. but some of us see certain scriptures in Hebrews that point to Paul.

Like I said the important point is why God chose not to personally ID Paul as the Author under inspiration?

Brother Tim 07-14-2009 07:01 PM

Quote:

My opinion is if you begin to doubt the KJV in even the smallest area of Preserved inspiration you will begin to doubt other areas of the KJV.
When one understands where the line of inspiration is clearly drawn,that is, with the words of Scripture themselves, then doubt does not enter the picture.

Quote:

Ok, under that logic let's examine.

If the books of the Bible are inspired then they would of existed from the Beginning, which they do not.
Chette, you are doing yourself what you have previously (and falsely) accused me of, twisting my words.

"the beginning" NOT "the Beginning" was my wording. I was referring to the time of the original manuscript of each book and their Divinely preserved copies, NOT the beginning of time/creation. The titles, verse numbers, and chapter numbers showed up far later than the original writings. They are not inspired as the Scriptures are.

Brother Tim 07-14-2009 07:05 PM

The Holy Ghost is the Author of all 66 books.
Quote:

65 books have the Author ID'd in the writing itself
We cannot be certain who wrote Hebrews any more than we can be certain who wrote Ruth. God did not deem it important for us to know in either circumstance.

chette777 07-14-2009 07:23 PM

no what I did was replace the word "Bible" with the word "Title". Twisting words is where I make your words say something other than what was meant. I kept your meaning just superimposed the words to show the logic of your statement when applied to the whole not just a part. the capitalization of beginning was a typo I hadn't realized I did that.

Each book in it's time was inspired, each Title in its time was inspired, each chapter number and line and punctuation was inspired and preserved the complete and whole word of God in its time until it's completion for our day.

If Ruth is without indication of Author then again the importance is why. Technically the Holy Ghost authored nothing He inspired and moved. 2Pete 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Tim 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Gods thoughts on certain subjects were written (authored) by men over a 1400 year period of time by as many as 40 men without ever losing it's fluidity and conjunction to the rest of the books.

I don't remember having falsely accused you twisting my words.

Brother Tim 07-14-2009 07:40 PM

Chette, let's put your statements together: (underlining mine)

Quote:

each Title in its time was inspired
Quote:

there is no reason for us not to believe it is Paul as the KJV name says it is Paul
Quote:

but some of us see certain scriptures in Hebrews that point to Paul.
Quote:

be careful as there is at least 8 times the Author(possibly Paul) that has what looks like a kingdom Gospel twist to it.
If the title is inspired (which it is not), then why are you tentative in your belief that Paul wrote it?

chette777 07-14-2009 07:53 PM

well aint it a good thing we can't loose salvation over it?

you will need to keep the context of my possible Paul statement. I said possibly because it is a different Gospel than that of Grace being shared in Hebrews. Having said that I do not want to argue about it as it is my belief. you will have to ask why God would not allow it in the body of the letter? that is your own study.

NOt all people agree that it is Paul who wrote it or that the Title is inspired. Even if the Title says so.

Brother Tim 07-14-2009 08:20 PM

Quote:

you will have to ask why God would not allow it in the body of the letter?
That can be easily answered. He did not consider it necessary for us to know. It did not affect the reason for the book's existence.

chette777 07-14-2009 08:33 PM

actually there is a reason but you will need to seek that on your own.

tonybones2112 07-16-2009 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 23887)
I was trying to find evidence of when Hebrews was written and I came across a site that looked great for the first couple of paragraphs, using the phrase "rightly dividing" and the author was of the opinion that Paul was the author of Hebrews. Then he started talking about how 95% of original manuscripts put the general epistles except for Hebrews, after Acts, then place Hebrews after II Thessalonians and before I Timothy. He doesn't go into manuscript evidence but I assume it is largely not from the received text. He states his reasons why he believes Hebrews was written during his first Roman imprisonment and his reasons make some sense. He argues that Hebrews was actually written to gentiles. He gives some fairly decent arguments for that, you would have to read the article. I'm not sure how he gets past the title of the book, though! I don't think he's right. Another possibility is that Hebrews is written to the Jews in churches in areas where Paul had authority over gentile churches and perhaps piggybacked to that is the future application to the tribulation church, if there is such a thing. The author's conclusion is that the book of Hebrews should be included in the "Mystery of God" revealed to Paul. Even if the author is correct on when and who Hebrews is written by, I don't believe that the order of the books of the Bible have to be presented in chronological order. Hebrews seems not to fit with Paul's Mystery. I've never understood the book of Hebrews as I should.

If you check this guys website he's all about restoring the Original Bible
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d040901.htm#_ftn4

Jen, using Isaiah 28:9-13 as our method, we see the following:

Paul wrote Hebrews:

Hebrews 13:19 But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner.
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words.
23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you.
24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Paul was the greatest of all the apostles, as he was given the revelation of the mystery of the Body of Christ kept hidden from the foundation of the world. Not only was he given the revelation of this, he was also the custodian and revealer of the three Biblical dispensations, (not Scofield's "7"); He closed the door on "time past" and was given the apostleship of "but now" but what many dispensationalists miss in studying 4 dispensations the Bible does not define(4 of Scofiled's) is that Paul was the "master builder" who ushered in Tribulation doctrine to the Jews by writing the first book of Tribulation doctrine for "ages to come".

No other apostle is named as being held captive in Rome("...Italy...") nor is any other apostle so closely associated with Timothy as Timothy was saved under the ministering of the Gospel to him by Paul(...mine own son after the faith...")

Hebrews was written to Hebrews at the start of the Tribulation, and only an Armstrongite, Mormon, Baptist, Protestant, Charismatic, Catholic, who either 1. Teaches salvation by works, 2. Teaches salvation for the Body can be lost, 3. Is an enemy of dispensational teaching, would dare say Hebrews was written to "Gentiles":

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
De 1:8 Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.
De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

We are adopted sons of Abraham, adopted sons of God, but we are the heirs of no literal geographical promises or blessings, as Gentiles we have no "fathers". Hebrews has a distinct Jewish tone from start to finish, and is doctrinally inclined towards the Jewish Messianic/Apostolic Church of the 12 apostles in the Acts 1-7 period and the future Tribulation/Millenium.

Hebrews is a Tribulation book as Paul points out:

Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Six thousand years of history, then one thousand of glorious Millennial reign. These Hebrews are on the verge of entering it, first seven years of torment must be endured. Those who "confess their sins", endure to the end, and don't take the Mark OF The Beast will have their sins blotted out at the beginning of this great time of refreshing that will come from the presence of the Lord(Acts 3). No other explanation is tenable and if we rightly divide the word, study precept upon precept, it all falls into place, otherwise we are allegorizing as Rome does.

Grace and peace sister

Tony

greenbear 07-16-2009 12:34 AM

Hey, Tony. Glad to see you back. This post was sort of a bad habit I have of trying to figure out what false doctrines different teachers have and I thought I could get some good insights, which I did! You really are a blessing and a wealth of information.

Grace and peace to you brother,

Jen

tonybones2112 07-16-2009 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 24094)
Hey, Tony. Glad to see you back. This post was sort of a bad habit I have of trying to figure out what false doctrines different teachers have and I thought I could get some good insights, which I did! You really are a blessing and a wealth of information.

Grace and peace to you brother,

Jen

Sister, thank you. God has made us all wealthy hasn't He? My computer problems will soon be solved by two words: Panasonic Toughbook:D

Grace and peace, looking forward to meeting you and brother John.

Tony

greenbear 07-16-2009 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 24097)
Sister, thank you. God has made us all wealthy hasn't He? My computer problems will soon be solved by two words: Panasonic Toughbook:D

Grace and peace, looking forward to meeting you and brother John.

Tony

Yes, He has, brother! We live in a 1200 sq ft house (not paid off) and drive economy cars (almost paid off). Our riches are only in Christ Jesus. We would just like to avoid living in a tent if things go sour. :( It will be our joy to meet you. Glad your computer thing is going to be resolved, looking forward to seeing you online more. :)

Brother Tim 07-16-2009 02:42 PM

Quote:

Hebrews was written to Hebrews at the start of the Tribulation, and only an Armstrongite, Mormon, Baptist, Protestant, Charismatic, Catholic, who either 1. Teaches salvation by works, 2. Teaches salvation for the Body can be lost, 3. Is an enemy of dispensational teaching, would dare say Hebrews was written to "Gentiles":
Well, Tony, which am I? I am a Baptist, but:

I am not #1, for I believe and teach without apology that salvation is by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

I am not #2, for I believe and teach without apology that we are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. (I Peter 1:3-5)

I am not #3, for I have not rejected all of the components of dispensational doctrine, and I do not war (as an enemy) against those who uphold such doctrines.

Yet, I receive the words of Hebrews for myself, as a child of God, though not an Israelite by physical birth, and I do not consider it a book reserved for some future event in time.

chette777 07-16-2009 05:06 PM

Get David Walkers book Dispensationalism, it will reconcile both your views, in the fact as I have said the Book of Hebrews is Transitional from church age to tribulation. lots of church age applications as Tim has pointed out, and doctrines for Israel in the Tribulation as Tony has pointed out

greenbear 07-16-2009 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 24174)
Get David Walkers book Dispensationalism, it will reconcile both your views, in the fact as I have said the Book of Hebrews is Transitional from church age to tribulation. lots of church age applications as Tim has pointed out, and doctrines for Israel in the Tribulation as Tony has pointed out

Thanks, Chette. I just ordered this book. It's 400 pages. :(:)

tonybones2112 07-16-2009 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 24145)
Yes, He has, brother! We live in a 1200 sq ft house (not paid off) and drive economy cars (almost paid off). Our riches are only in Christ Jesus. We would just like to avoid living in a tent if things go sour. :( It will be our joy to meet you. Glad your computer thing is going to be resolved, looking forward to seeing you online more. :)

We'll get it together soon sister. I am looking forward to it also:)

Grace and peace

Tony

tonybones2112 07-17-2009 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 24153)
Well, Tony, which am I? I am a Baptist, but:

I am not #1, for I believe and teach without apology that salvation is by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

I am not #2, for I believe and teach without apology that we are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. (I Peter 1:3-5)

I am not #3, for I have not rejected all of the components of dispensational doctrine, and I do not war (as an enemy) against those who uphold such doctrines.

Yet, I receive the words of Hebrews for myself, as a child of God, though not an Israelite by physical birth, and I do not consider it a book reserved for some future event in time.

Tim, we have flawed logic on both the Pro and Cons of Hebrews as being anything. Many fundamentalists correctly discern Paul's authprship of it but sew themselves to it from the logic of, Well, Paul wrote it and he wrote the doctrine we practice today, thus we must have SOME doctrinal application for the church today. On the other end, most my crew cannot accept Paul's authorship because by their own rigid standards " Paul could not have written anything except to the churchoftheonebody!"

Neither side is willing to accept they are wrong on their respective counts. The truth?

The truth is that Paul wrote Hebrews. The truth is that peter and the 11 could not write letters to the "uncircumcision" Body administered by Paul, but Paul could write letters to the "circumcision", he wrote them to them according to Peter. Paul founded the Jewish Corinthian church that had the "signs", practiced the "Lord's supper", and whose converts were baptized in water, all "ordinances" that ceased at the end of Acts 28. Reda my message again, rad it as a Bible Believing Christian and not as a Baptist. The Apostle Paul choreographed the transition of three Biblical dispensations: From the kingdom of heaven/restoration of Israel into the present "church age" and then laid the foundation for all doctrine for Israel in the Tribulation by writing Hebrews. Take Hebrews out of the "general" epistles. Nothing in Peter, James, John, or Jude's letters fit. The capstone of all Paul's teachings is found in Philemon. Turn the page. The foundation of Genesis-Acts 28 is in Hebrews. Dr. Ruckman says you can't understand Revelation without understanding the OT and vice versa. I don't know. If I have spent an hour studying Romans-Philemon, I've spent 10 seconds studying Revelation. How to be reconciled to God today is not found in there. It's not found in Hebrews either. It's found in Romans-Philemon. The simple truth, which is why it's so easy to miss is it's simplicity, is that you will not understand the OT without understanding Hebrews, you will not understand Hebrews without understanding the OT.


The theme of the OT is Israel's fall from grace by murdering their Messiah.
The theme of Hebrews is the rise of Israel by their accepting their Messiah.

The center of the OT is Jesus Christ.
The center of Hebrews is Jesus Christ.


Brother, I know, I see it every day where Christians have run out to the antique store and bought a Cherrypicker:

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

We pick this one out to enforce running out to the Baptist church every time the doors are open to the exclusion of all else. What "day" is that approaching, the Gaithers coming to "minister special music" or the Second Coming Of Christ?

Brother Tim, we cherry pick Hebrews 10:25 to censure those who don;t run out to the church every time the doors open, but refuse to accept this:

Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

The refusal is accepting the water baptism of Matt. 3, Mark 16, Matt. 28, Acts 2, Acts 10, etc, is the same water baptism of Leviticus 8.

Jesus wept.

I am sorry you take offense of my use of the word "Baptist" where none was given or meant. I say this then in all sincerity and charity brother, live with it. The whole time I've been in this forum I've typed for the edification of people I accept as Christian family till I lost the use of a hand for a week and then endured being called a false teacher and a heretic by Harry Ironside and his parrots, David Walker, Dr, Ruckman, and some people in this forum. By Brandon's grace I will have some peace in that respect for the next 29 days(Check the Chit Chat part of the forum), we all will have a little less vitriol generally.

Brother, ye see what a large response I have written, and the conclusion is this: There is not word of Hebrews that is doctrinally applicable to the Mystery Body Of Christ of Eph. 3 that you and I belong to. Hebrews is written to Hebrews and does not become doctrinally operative until the Church founded and administered by Paul is taken out of the world.

Grace and peace Tim.

Marcion Antonius Hereticus

Brother Tim 07-17-2009 03:23 PM

[underlining mine]
Quote:

We pick this one out to enforce running out to the Baptist church every time the doors are open to the exclusion of all else. What "day" is that approaching, the Gaithers coming to "minister special music" or the Second Coming Of Christ?
...
I am sorry you take offense of my use of the word "Baptist" where none was given or meant. I say this then in all sincerity and charity brother, live with it.
Tony, man up to the truth, you have a deep-seated problem with Baptists. You lump us all into one group while you yourself bristle when others try to stick you into a box. I as one Baptist can take all the mud you want to throw, just do try to hug me while the mud is still wet.

Quote:

Hebrews is written to Hebrews and does not become doctrinally operative until the Church founded and administered by Paul is taken out of the world.
"I say this then in all sincerity and charity brother" Tony,... this is hogwash. :eek:

P.S. Jesus founded the church, not Paul. (see my underlining)
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Amanda S. 07-20-2009 08:58 AM

Chette,

Quote:

Title and verse numbers and chapter division by most feel they are just of men. But if God has given us the KJV complete with these titles and divisions and numbering I believe they in that case are inspired and preserved as such for a reason.
AMEN!

Quote:

David Walker does a good job of showing the transitional nature of Hebrews in his book "Dispensatinalism"
AMEN again. A fantastic book. Bro. David was in my husband's graduating class at PBI and he truly knows the Book!

Amanda S. 07-20-2009 09:21 AM

Greenbear,

For what it's worth, if you're interested. :)

This is what Dr. Ruckman says:

Quote:

The author of the last chapter is undoubtedly Paul while the other 12 chapters contain material of such a nature that to this day no one can nail down the author for certain. If I were pressed for an answer I would say that the first 12 chapters were written while Paul was in Arabia, and were aimed at "his kinsmen according to the flesh" (Rom 9:3), about whom he sorrowed day and night (Acts 20:22-24). I presume Paul wrote the last chapter sometime after Acts 20. The reader will burn out his eyes studying the arguments for and angainst the authorship of Priscilla and Aquilla, Barnabas, Apollos, Luke, and others, and when he is through he will be exactly where he was when he started: nowhere.

It's a free country. Take your pick. Accepting or rejecting any of the above theories will not open ONE word in ONE verse for you anywhere in the entire 13 chapters.
Blessings! :)

Brother Tim 07-20-2009 09:42 AM

Quote:

David Walker does a good job of showing the transitional nature of Hebrews in his book "Dispensatinalism"
:D :D :D Hmmm!

Quote:

It's a free country. Take your pick. Accepting or rejecting any of the above theories will not open ONE word in ONE verse for you anywhere in the entire 13 chapters.
Excellent quote!

chette777 07-20-2009 08:38 PM

Pastor Walker sent me a copy of dispensationalism. I was blessed to say the least.

greenbear 07-20-2009 09:23 PM

I expect to receive my copy any day now.

greenbear 07-21-2009 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24443)
Greenbear,

For what it's worth, if you're interested. :)

This is what Dr. Ruckman says:



Blessings! :)

Thanks, Amanda. I've considered looking into Ruckman, he sounds like a fascinating teacher, although I gather there would be a whole lot I would disagree with him about. Interesting perspective, that quote.

Blessings,

Jennifer


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