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-   -   Geocentricity: Yea or Nay? (https://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1144)

Mind and Body 04-11-2009 11:36 AM

Geocentricity: Yea or Nay?
 
Gerardous Bouw is a geocentrist, meaning he believes that the sun orbits the earth. He develops this view from a literal interpretation of the Bible. I don't know that he is a KJV-O, but he does say that he "insists on using the Authorized Version", and that is where his Bible verses in his articles come from. His Web-page is Geocentricity.com and he publishes a quarterly mag called The Biblical Astronomer. So...what do you guys make of this? This was the first time I knew that there was any scientific question as to "what-orbits-what?" His science seems pretty good.

Winman 04-11-2009 12:53 PM

Oh boy, astronomy is a subject I love, I have been an amateur astronomer since my youth, I still own a nice telescope, but I have not used it much in the last few years.

You know, I have studied this subject. I do believe Earth is the center of the universe, it is obviously God's center of attention. That said, I think the Earth probably rotates around the Sun. I do think perhaps our Sun, or at least our galaxy the Milky Way is the dead center of the entire universe.

Now astronomers use the red-shift to determine the distance of far away galaxies. And the more the red-shift, supposedly the further away a galaxy is, and the faster it is travelling away from us. This is the belief that the universe is expanding.

I myself do not believe the universe is expanding. I believe the red-shift has been interpreted falsely and does not equate with distance or speed of expansion of the universe.

It is clear the universe was stretched or spread out by God, there are many verses to support this.

Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

I do not believe in the Big Bang theory, although the Bible says God stretched out the heavens. One of the biggest arguments by secular astronomers against the Big Bang is that it resembled the creation account in the Bible. But the heavens were stretched out, although I do not believe they are still expanding. All the Bible verses on this support that the universe was stretched out past tense, so it is no longer expanding in my view. I believe in a six-day creation just as the Bible says.

The work of Halton Arp has shown evidence that the red-shift interpretations are wrong. He has photographic evidence of supposedly super distant quasars actually attached to known much closer galaxies, though the quasars show much more redshift.

Here is his site, you can see photos here.

http://www.haltonarp.com/bio

And astronmer William Tifft showed the "Quantization of the Red-Shifted Light from Distant Galaxies". This showed that the Earth was the center of the universe. Of course, the atheistic astronomers would not hear of this, and sought to disprove his findings. Trouble is, further study showed Tifft correct. :pound:

Here is a good article on Tifft's discoveries.

http://www.ldolphin.org/tifftshift.html

Here is another article from ICR. See also "Related Articles" at the bottom of the page.

http://www.icr.org/universe-center/

It is completely possible that the entire universe is rotating around the Earth itself. It is a matter of perspective really. Photos of Polaris (North Star) do show the universe spinning around us. Of course the Earth rotates, so this would be the case, but who knows? Perhaps the universe is spinning around us each 24 hours?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...an/polaris.jpg

Winman 04-11-2009 01:58 PM

Here is a very interesting article on Halton Arp's site called the "Fingers of God'. These show galaxies in arrangement all pointing toward Earth. It is unmistakeable and astronomers cannot explain it. These fingers point inward from every direction indicating the Earth is the center of the universe.

http://www.haltonarp.com/articles/fi...nding_universe

By the way, Halton Arp is not a Christian that I know of, just an honest astronomer. He has endured much persecution because of his publications. At one time he was considered one of the most preeminent astronomers in the world. That is till his studies began to prove the Big Bang Theory false, and also showing the Earth as the center of the universe, as also Tifft has given evidence.

Diligent 04-11-2009 02:09 PM

The case for geocentricity is pretty un-convincing to me. Obviously, if the case could be made from Scripture that would be strong enough, but geocentrists focus on only two verses (AFAIK).

If motion is relative (have you ever told a child to "sit still" in a moving car? Is that possible? Yes, motion is relative.) there is no problem with picking the earth as the reference point for motion in the universe in writing. It is not "wrong" to say the sun rises and sets. Even modern science says it -- ever looked at your weather report? What's the problem? There isn't any! Yes, the earth orbits the sun. Yes, the sun rises and sets -- relative to an observer on earth. There is no problem here!

The Bible was written by God for man. There is no problem understanding that any motion it references in the universe is relative to the observer, which is either God or man.

Winman 04-11-2009 02:31 PM

Brandon

I agree with you, that's why I said it was a matter of perspective when I showed the photo of Polaris. I think the Earth revolves around the Sun myself. But I do think Earth is at the center of the universe.

And there is REAL evidence that Earth is at or near the center of the universe. Here is an article from Answers In Genesis.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home...6n2_CENTRE.pdf

It is not just creationists who have put forward this theory, many secular astronomers agree there is strong evidence for this. Of course, many astronomers have spent much of their time trying to disprove it as well.

This is what "quantized redshifts" show, galaxies in bands around our home galaxy the Milky Way.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v403/Winman/QR.gif

Bro. Parrish 04-11-2009 03:41 PM

I have run into a few Geo-heads in my day, some of them can be quite dogmatic but I really haven't found the need to strike a stern position on it myself.

I have seen believers argue about this for hours, it reminds me of the Gap Theory, LOL. I have also seen that some Geocentrists believe in a non-orbiting and non-moving earth, not just a universe-centered earth. I think this might be because they are seeing something in the Old Testament (Joshua 10:13-14) that the Bible may not actually be teaching, and then they are projecting that into a dogmatic view of the current state of affairs. I have presented issues like Foucault's pendulum and the Coriolis effect, only to be treated in a rude fashion as though it didn't deserve discussion. In the end, I decided it wasn't worth arguing about. More here (FWIW) from Apologetics Press:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2178
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2189

Winman 04-11-2009 03:47 PM

I agree. I really believe the Earth is orbiting the Sun, which is orbiting our galaxy the Milky Way. But I do believe we are at the center.

Kinda metaphysical, but when you spin a top, is the top spinning, or is the room spinning around the top? :)

Winman 04-11-2009 04:55 PM

Since this thread started I looked at quite a few sites on Geocentricity. Some are quite scientific, others are way out there!

I know this is sort of changing the subject, but one site showed this video to try and prove NASA faked the moon landings back in the late 60s and early 70s. I found this video interesting, especially the scene of an astronaut standing up around 2:17 seconds into the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdMvQ...eature=related

Mind and Body 04-11-2009 08:51 PM

This form of Geocentricity holds that the Sun orbits the Earth. Naturally the belief that the Earth is the center of the universe would follow naturally, but this word (invented by G. Bouw) means "of or pertaining to the belief of heliokineticism/geostaticism." So that was really my intent when I started this thread: what of geocentricity? Any scientific objections to this guy's idea?

Bro. Parrish: in a geocentric universe, Focault's pendulum and the Coriolis effect can both be easily explained by the orbiting of the luminiferous ęther (what the Bible calls the "firmament") around the earth.

tonybones2112 04-12-2009 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mind and Body (Post 17990)
Gerardous Bouw is a geocentrist, meaning he believes that the sun orbits the earth. He develops this view from a literal interpretation of the Bible. I don't know that he is a KJV-O, but he does say that he "insists on using the Authorized Version", and that is where his Bible verses in his articles come from. His Web-page is Geocentricity.com and he publishes a quarterly mag called The Biblical Astronomer. So...what do you guys make of this? This was the first time I knew that there was any scientific question as to "what-orbits-what?" His science seems pretty good.

M, one thing I have learned is because someone says they are "KJVO" does not necessarily mean they are right. Charley Manson once stated the KJV was the correct Bible and we all know what he did. The violent and quasi-guerrilla Christian Identity Movement have factions who are KJVO. They seem to believe the weapons of our warfare are carnal ones, like bombs and shooting abortion doctors. I believe Eric Robert Rudolph was CIM. We must remember Charles Taze Russell, who founded the Watchtower, had nothing but a KJV to teach his twisted theology from for several years till Westcott and Hort came along with their corruptions.

I don't place much stock in Geocentricism or any other fringe research as this. I am not being cranky but ask, what do these fringe investigations have to do with the gospel of Christ? Steven Hawkins stated in a book back in the late 80s that examination of all distant bodies showed that they were moving away from the earth at an equal speed and direction, placing the earth as the central region of the Universe> I thought that was interesting that someone so high a profile as he would make that statement. Geocentricity was the doctrine of the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages till Copernicus demonstrated the fundamentals of motion for heavenly bodies.

What I find to be a real mind blower is the implications of Rev. 1:6 and that the Universe was created to be inhabited.

And will be.

Grace and peace

Tony

Mind and Body 04-12-2009 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 18039)
M, one thing I have learned is because someone says they are "KJVO" does not necessarily mean they are right. Charley Manson once stated the KJV was the correct Bible and we all know what he did. The violent and quasi-guerrilla Christian Identity Movement have factions who are KJVO. They seem to believe the weapons of our warfare are carnal ones, like bombs and shooting abortion doctors. I believe Eric Robert Rudolph was CIM. We must remember Charles Taze Russell, who founded the Watchtower, had nothing but a KJV to teach his twisted theology from for several years till Westcott and Hort came along with their corruptions.

I don't place much stock in Geocentricism or any other fringe research as this. I am not being cranky but ask, what do these fringe investigations have to do with the gospel of Christ? Steven Hawkins stated in a book back in the late 80s that examination of all distant bodies showed that they were moving away from the earth at an equal speed and direction, placing the earth as the central region of the Universe> I thought that was interesting that someone so high a profile as he would make that statement. Geocentricity was the doctrine of the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages till Copernicus demonstrated the fundamentals of motion for heavenly bodies.

I don't look at his Web-page and wonder because he is a KJVO, but I find it interesting because it is something I have never questioned before. I think, however (I don't mean to be rude) that calling geocenterists "fringe" is a little extreme. He has an article in one of his TBA .pdf files with quotes from atheist/evolutionist scientists that more or less concede that geocentricity is science (even though it destroys the IBBT [Inflationary Big Bang Theory]). And that is something to think about: if we can provide evidence for geocentricity, then we can discredit the Big Bang Theory, something for which evolutionists have no non-Creation alternative (other than the Steady State Theory, which is severely discredited and has been since the 70's).

Bro. Parrish 04-12-2009 04:22 PM

But we do not need Geocentricity to prove or disprove anything.
We have the inerrant Word of God brother!
Evolutionists will not accept God on the basis of "evidence."
They have a heart problem, not an evidence problem.

tonybones2112 04-13-2009 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mind and Body (Post 18044)
I don't look at his Web-page and wonder because he is a KJVO, but I find it interesting because it is something I have never questioned before. I think, however (I don't mean to be rude) that calling geocenterists "fringe" is a little extreme. He has an article in one of his TBA .pdf files with quotes from atheist/evolutionist scientists that more or less concede that geocentricity is science (even though it destroys the IBBT [Inflationary Big Bang Theory]). And that is something to think about: if we can provide evidence for geocentricity, then we can discredit the Big Bang Theory, something for which evolutionists have no non-Creation alternative (other than the Steady State Theory, which is severely discredited and has been since the 70's).

I understand you are not being rude M, and please understand I was not demeaning your thread or your topic. My point is that we are soldiers for Christ, not scientists for Christ. Great men of science who were Christians, as Henry Morris and Louis Pasteur, their job, their livelyhood was science. Our whole purpose is to give the gospel to the lost so that His words can make them alive to Him.

Do you know I have a slight background in biochemistry? You have to in order to be a mortician as I once was. At the end of our DNA is a little enzyme known as a TELOMERE. It tells a cell when to divide and when the time for the cell to die has arrived. Each cell in your body divides 52 times, this is called the Hayflick Limit. Cancer cells don't have that. Did you know cancer cells, for all practical purposes, are immortal? As long as the host organism is alive, they are alive to continue to divide and spread. They CANNOT DIE as a normal cell dies, until the host dies. Cancer is a devious counterfeit of eternal life, one day we will be resurrected, or changed at His Appearance, and never die. Some may think this is a horrendous analogy, but we need to counterfeit those cancer cells and penetrate the body of the lost world, making new cells for Christ, who are then immortal and will never die.

The steady state theory was the predominant one for centuries. Recently, it's most vocal advocate was Sir Fred Hoyle. The Big Bang took over but is starting to crack around the center. What has "science" done? Rolled with the punches, now they have the theory that the Universe "oscillates". Bangs, expands, shrinks, bangs, expands, shrinks. This is the central theme of Hindu cosmology and religion. Evolution is a precept of the Hindu religion. Our children are being taught a religion against the Constitution's prohibition of it by a government entity. What has the ACLU done?

Don't hold your breath.

"Genesis is a myth..." Pope John Paul II, OMNI Magazine, Oct. 1981.

Grace and peace

Tony

Bro. Parrish 04-13-2009 09:11 AM

Tony that is interesting about the telomere.

M&B, here is a thread I started a while back regarding evolution you might enjoy, God bless...
http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=825

Mind and Body 04-13-2009 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 18045)
But we do not need Geocentricity to prove or disprove anything.
We have the inerrant Word of God brother!
Evolutionists will not accept God on the basis of "evidence."
They have a heart problem, not an evidence problem.

But no evolutionist is a Bible-believing Christian, Brother, and if we can show them the scientific case for a Creator, we can then tie in Biblical truths, can we not? We can use science and the signs of the design therein, and then Biblically demonstrate that all signs point to Christ. This is the purpose of Creationist ministries.

Also, Bro., I think you'd be suprised about how well the average scientist is protected from hearing anything about any alternative for evolution. See, Darwinists (firmly) control almost all refereed biological scientific journals, and many of the people at Creation.com and TrueOrigin.org speak of having their research denied publication for a plethora of reasons. Which leaves places like CMI and AiG to publish their own journals, havens for YECs who wouldn't get published elsewhere, but what does the average scientist do if he picks up a Journal of Creation or an Answers magazine? He dismisses them as "Bible-thumpers" and tosses it in the trash. So it is up to Christians [predominately] to show these Darwinists the truth that they don't here elsewhere. Because they don't see evidence because they're (as well as the entire theory of neo-Darwinism) protected from scientific blows by the establishment; and they deride the Bible, we can lead them to Christ if we show the evidence to them.

Oh, and this is a link to the Geocentricity page: here.

Bro. Parrish 04-13-2009 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mind and Body (Post 18097)
But no evolutionist is a Bible-believing Christian, Brother, and if we can show them the scientific case for a Creator, we can then tie in Biblical truths, can we not? We can use science and the signs of the design therein, and then Biblically demonstrate that all signs point to Christ. This is the purpose of Creationist ministries.

Well, your original comment was:
"if we can provide evidence for geocentricity, then we can discredit the Big Bang Theory."

The problem is, they will come up with another theory!
A good example of this can be seen in the Ben Stein movie called EXPELLED, when Stein interviews the popular atheist Richard Dawkins. (pretty good movie by the way, those who have not seen it can rent it at Blockbuster).

I agree with the need and value of Creationist ministries, (my own threads regarding evolution will prove this) however I'm not sure Geocentricity is going to make an evolutionist fall to his knees and repent. Many of the men on this forum don't even buy off on Geocentricity. The Big Bang Theory is not an excuse for unbelief. In the end, the evolutionist has been surrounded by much "God evidence" from his birth, and he has no excuse. (Romans 1:20) He CHOOSES darkness over light, regardless of what the fossil record shows. Atheists choose to ACTIVELY reject the God of creation (along with His evidence for creation) on a daily basis---it has more to do with their sin than their theories. Their HEARTS are controlling their minds (Proverbs 23:7), that's why I said they have a heart problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mind and Body (Post 18097)
Also, Bro., I think you'd be suprised about how well the average scientist is protected from hearing anything about any alternative for evolution. See, Darwinists (firmly) control almost all refereed biological scientific journals, and many of the people at Creation.com and TrueOrigin.org speak of having their research denied publication for a plethora of reasons.

No I'm not surprised at all I agree with you brother, and I am well aware of the "lock" on higher learning in the scientific community. A product of the public school system, I have debated and witnessed to so-called evolutionists for 25 years, and I do think all this debate has its place. I just don't think all creationists are in your Geocentricity boat, and I'm not sure Geocentricity is the best way to prove anything about science or the Bible!

I think there are MUCH BETTER arguments for a Creator without going to a subject which is going to split your Creationists down the middle. I already gave you links to Apologetics Press which was certainly not promoting the theory, here is AIG's (one of the world's most poplular Creation ministries) review of Geocentricity, they imply that it's "gobbledegook":
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v...ism_review.asp
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v...eocentrism.asp

The Institute for Creation Research (ICR) offers the following thought in their article:
"the Bible contains no explicit teaching on this matter."
http://www.icr.org/article/geocentricity-creation/

By the way, that same article from AIG also appears on the Creationist website you linked, and concludes by stating, "Creationists should distance themselves from even the best defense of geocentrism":
http://creation.com/geocentric-gobbledegook

Listen up: I'm not saying the theory is wrong, nor am I saying Bouw is correct. It just seems to me that Geocentricity is hardly the best ammo for a witness to an atheist or evolutionist. See my point?

Mind and Body 04-13-2009 12:47 PM

Alright, brother, you have your opinion, and I have mine. I just think that it would be an excellent example of God's cosmological preference of the earth if we could provide evidence of the earth's stability. One of the biggest attacks on Geocentricity that I've seen was the Creation Technical Journal's Danny Faulkner's article, but Bouw wrote a rebuttal that more or less lays out his whole argument. You could give it a look.

But we are all brothers in Christ, even if some are Gap Theorists, some are Progressive Creationists, some are (God forbid...) Theistic Evolutionists...although we can disagree with these people and have the Bible on our side, we can focus instead on reaching the lost and remember the security of our salvation and be kind to one another. My friend is a Day-Age Creationist (and a former Catholic) but now he is a great Christian. I know he's wrong, but Satan loves it when believers quarrel, because it prevents evangelism. We pass out tracts, we help out in our community, and are great friends. We need to focus on unity in Christ, and not just on scientific and interpretation issues. I've seen too many Churches break up because the preacher became an Old-Earther or an Armenianist or a Calvinist and people who disagreed would just leave. I've been a member of a Church...well, let's just say that I should have left when Jesus did, because He had left a long time ago! And it's always this kind of thing.

Bro. Parrish 04-13-2009 01:13 PM

I hear ya, that's why I stated back in post no 6 that I usually won't even argue about these issues. I have made it a point to politely rebuke some brothers on other forums who come in swinging and try to tell everyone else they are wrong, being all dogmatic about a theory or whatever. I'm not sure that being dogmatic on some of these things is edifying to the body of believers, because it can be very divisive and I think we need to pick our fights carefully. I think perhaps some Christians fall into a trap of sorts by thinking they HAVE to take a position on something like the Gap Theory or Geocentricity, when in reality it's just not that important to our core cause. So, I don't allow myself to get pinned down on it. But I agree with you that Creation Ministries are very worthwhile and I do enjoy many of those sites and what they bring to the table against the religion of evolution.


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