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-   -   God hates the sinner or just the sin? (https://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=651)

aussiemama 10-31-2008 09:26 AM

God hates the sinner or just the sin?
 
It seems that there are passages in the Bible that teach that God hates sinners. I don't like that idea, but it appears to be Biblical. My whole life I had heard that "God hates the sin, not the sinner" but somewhere in Psalms it says that God hates sinners. What is the truth on this matter?

Forrest 10-31-2008 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiemama (Post 10654)
It seems that there are passages in the Bible that teach that God hates sinners. I don't like that idea, but it appears to be Biblical. My whole life I had heard that "God hates the sin, not the sinner" but somewhere in Psalms it says that God hates sinners. What is the truth on this matter?

I've never really thought about that. God "hates" the sinner?

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Interesting. Reconciling the wrath, anger, and hatred of God; with His love, kindness, mercy, and grace.

MC1171611 10-31-2008 12:04 PM

A just, holy, righteous God cannot stand sin in His presence; a sinner is someone who is covered in sin, and actively rejecting the ultimate sacrifice of His only Son, Jesus Christ. How could anyone love a person that refused to accept your sacrifice of a child?

This all ties in with the classic nonsense "God doesn't change anything." It's abundantly clear that God does change His mind, among other things, though His character and qualities are always the same. In essence, God is planning on putting a detestable sinner in Hell because He is righteous and cannot abide sin, and the sinner is actively refusing His incredible gift. However, when that person accepts Christ as His Saviour, He changes His mind from putting that person in Hell, to accepting Him in the beloved.

God is not like us; the only human that ever hated someone without sinning was David (Ps. 139:22). Jesus clearly said that if we hate someone, we're guilty of murder already. Therefore it is not our job to hate anyone, but God can do that and still be righteous and just and Holy.

Traditional Anglican 10-31-2008 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MC1171611 (Post 10670)
A just, holy, righteous God cannot stand sin in His presence; a sinner is someone who is covered in sin, and actively rejecting the ultimate sacrifice of His only Son, Jesus Christ. How could anyone love a person that refused to accept your sacrifice of a child?

This all ties in with the classic nonsense "God doesn't change anything." It's abundantly clear that God does change His mind, among other things, though His character and qualities are always the same. In essence, God is planning on putting a detestable sinner in Hell because He is righteous and cannot abide sin, and the sinner is actively refusing His incredible gift. However, when that person accepts Christ as His Saviour, He changes His mind from putting that person in Hell, to accepting Him in the beloved.

God is not like us; the only human that ever hated someone without sinning was David (Ps. 139:22). Jesus clearly said that if we hate someone, we're guilty of murder already. Therefore it is not our job to hate anyone, but God can do that and still be righteous and just and Holy.

I am sorry, can you clarify what you mean by David being the only human who ever hated without sin was David....I am not passing a verdict on whether you are right or wrong, I would like to see where you are coming from with that......Blessings.

Luke 10-31-2008 02:42 PM

Personally, I think this topic is as stupid as calvinism (sorry TA).

There are two OT verses which say God hates those that do iniquity, and those who loveth violence.

Why is it that we start applying these two OT verses to the age of Grace?

Incidentally, BEFORE Calvary, God still loved us enough, when we were yet sinners, that He died for us. God showed His love for us on the cross, and He still shows it everyday in His long suffering, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

To take two verse from the Psalms

Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

And say "God hates sinners" is to be guilty of prooftexting.

The only one that says specifically that God hates sinners is Psalm 5:5 - and Psalm 5:4 says that wickedness shall not dwell with Him, And here in verse five, it says the foolish shall not stand in thy sight. Verse 6 says He shall destroy them. Now, to me, this is speaking of a great day of judgment, where sinners stand before God - in that Day, God's righteous anger and hatred will condemn those wicked fools who rejected Christ and did not have his imputed righteousness to everlasting flame.


Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Those last verses should settle it for us. They are clear - they are all referring to what God did on the cross in demonstrating His love (Romans 5:8 is another I think I left out). This was while we were yet sinners - God showed his love toward us NOW, while we were yet sinners living in sin.

Sorry AM, I don't mean to make this reply in order to upset you, but I have seen it a lot recently, so it's really a reply to everyone. Like Holiness/Pentecostal want to make sure everybody knows they can lose their salvation, it seems some IFB's want everyone to know God hates them.

atlas 10-31-2008 03:11 PM

Luke,


This is a very good post my friend. I'm glad God loved me when I was a sinner and saved my soul from hell. If you are saved you are saved because God loves you and gave his son for you. This is real love. Then he sent the holy ghost to convict you of your sin and impress you to accept salvation. With out God's love for sinners no one would ever get saved. This is why he sent his son was to die for and save sinners.

When it all comes down to the real deal it's very simple. Without God's love we would all go to hell. He loved us, died for us and saved our unworthy souls from hell. I find the question dose God hate sinners a very foolish question.

The real question should be. Dose God love sinners? Yes he dose, I know, I'm a very unworthy saved sinner. I'm unworthy of his love, death, and salvation. Yet he gave me this free gift because of his perfect love for me. For this I am very grateful.


Atlas

MC1171611 10-31-2008 04:31 PM

Something tricky to watch for is verb tenses and indirect objects.

"For God so loved the world..."

First, that's past tense. It doesn't say "loves." At a point in history, God loved the...

Secondly, that's "the world," not "everyone in the world" or "all the people in the world." "World" is a collective noun, not a specific noun. God saw His creation steeped in sin and headed for Hell, and His infinite love (balanced by His perfect wrath) made a way for His creation to be saved.

About David: from what I've been able to tell from Scripture (and talking to certain people who I respect for their Biblical knowledge), David is the only person in the Bible who appears to have been capable of righteous hatred. He said that he hated people, whereas we cannot do so without being guilty of murder. The fact that he is called "a man after God's own heart" is likely the cause: he was so close to God that he was capable of righteous hatred, without becoming a murderer in his heart.

Forrest 10-31-2008 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 10693)
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Brother Luke, I agree. There is absolutely no doubt our Heavenly Father loved us first. He gave and He provided a gift that is totally undeserved and unmerited.

It seems to me, however, as we read Psalm 5 very carefully, we can conclude that God still "hatest all workers of iniquity". The question is who are the wicked, evil, foolish workers of iniquity? They are haters who despise and reject God.

Specifically, these are the ones God is said to hate. I think the emphasis in these two verses clarifies that "evil will not dwell with God" and "the foolish will not stand in God's sight" and He hates the workers of iniquity.

They will not "dwell" with God or "stand in His sight" and be "hated as workers of iniquity" by God, because they rejected Him. This holds true for all men. The good news, as you pointed out, we have no fear of God's wrath because we have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Psalms 5:4-5 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Luke 10-31-2008 06:45 PM

Vince, you have a problem with that line of reasoning.

You are saying God loved, as in past tense, prior to the cross, and his love was demonstrated by the cross. So you are saying God loved the world (before the cross) so he sent his begotten son (to the cross).

But Psalm 5:5 is pre-calvary, and it's the only verse in the Bible that says God hates sinners.

So before the cross - on the one hand you have God hating sinners, and on the other hand, you have God loving the world (the world means the whole world - don't redefine it brother - it doesn't mean, some people of the world - there are none righteous and God is no respecter of persons). So which is it?

If Psalm 5:5 applies to the day of judgment when the wicked stand before that great throne, and God casts all sin away from Him and no sin dwells in His presence, then there is no problem with these verses.

Here Am I 10-31-2008 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 10714)
But Psalm 5:5 is pre-calvary, and it's the only verse in the Bible that says God hates sinners.

Actually, there's also Proverb 6:16-19

However, before we start to fuss, I'd like you to know that this very topic has been debated before, over at Cody's place, and it caused a lot of division and discord. It was not a situation that any of us should want to repeat.

That being said, I would like to know why this subject is being pursued, again. Many of us from that thread are now here...are we desirous of having the same thing happen here? Do we want to 'stir the pot' to see what happens?

I hope not, I believe most of us are mature enough to want to avoid sowing discord...


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