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Forrest 10-03-2008 09:51 AM

Quote:

I always wonder why someone claims to be a sinner saved by grace, if Jesus took all your sin how much do you have, if he has washed you clean of all your sin, how much do you have?
Brother Scott, you make a good observation. The Scripture no longer calls the believer a "sinner". We are "saints", "righteous", "redeemed", "sanctified", "purified", "sanctified", "forgiven", "washed", "cleansed", and "dead to sin".

But at the same time we still do, say, and think sinful acts, unrighteousness, and ungodliness.

Quote:

I sin every day, I struggle with sin every day, sin almost ended my life many days when I was not right with God. The LORD JESUS CHRIST saved me from my sins, those that I had done, am doing and will do. My soul is bought and payed for, but in this mortal life sin is ever present and all around and I will stumble and I will fall, and my LORD will forgive me and I will get back on my feet and keep following the path of righteousness.
Isn't this what POTW is really saying? In Christ we are "perfect", "pure", "sanctified", "holy", "unblameable", and "unreprovable". Yet, I also know the daily and practical temptations, struggles, and wretchedness of my mortal life. The battle between the "flesh" and the "Spirit".

Scott, I think you and People are saying the same thing. Both aspects apply. Our position in Christ is absolutely perfect. Our daily mortal life is still plagued with sins of thought, word, and deed.

I think Romans 6, 7, and 8 deal with both sides of the issue.

We conclude then that,

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" (Isaiah 64:6).

Peace and love, Brethren.

wwjd.usa 10-03-2008 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fundy (Post 8843)
What do you expect to gain by living the occasional sinless day/ week?

fundy

I plan to obtain God's will. However, it's very hard not to sin, but with God, all things are possible

wwjd.usa 10-03-2008 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 8847)
wwjd.usa,

Why are you using the word perfection like it is something you can attain to?

Romans 3:23 still applies to you.

We are saved by Christ's righteousness, not our own.

Even if you go a day without sinning, that does not erase sins in the past. It does not hide sin.

You are basically saying that a man can be justified by the law. If that be so, then the reward is of debt, and not of grace. Romans 4:4.

Abour Romans 3:23, you are correct.
The purpose of me doing this, is try to please God as much as possible, and to try to end up in Hell.

I'm not saying that a man can be justified by the law. I'm just saying that I'm trying to please God as much as possible.

I know that I am saved by grace and all. Also, I know that if I can end up in Heaven if I sin more or less. However, the reason that I try to sin as less as possible, is that that God would be more pleased.

wwjd.usa 10-03-2008 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levite-7 (Post 8849)
Originally Posted by Josh
This is saying that Christ's works on the cross isn't enought to keep us saved, and we must do it by living righteously. When you become a part of God's family, you're there forever. He's not going to send you to Hell because you die with unconfessed sin. When He washed you in the blood, He washed you forever my brother. Jesus said that he that is cleansed need only to wash his feet, implying that we are still clean, save our feet. Bottom line: You cannoy lose your salvation by anything you do or do not do, or anyway at all! Salvation is eternal.
[/FONT]

I disagree, that once a person is saved, that he's saved forever. This is what my baptist friend tells me. He says that a person needs to go to the church, become saved. After that the person is saved, the person can go into the world, sin as much as possible, and would still end up in heaven.
I disagree with this.

wwjd.usa 10-03-2008 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway (Post 8858)
First of Scott
David was a righteous man and he sinned, Moses was a righteous man and he sinned, Noah walked with God and he sinned.

But David , NOah or Moses did not Sin every day, did they? It was very rare that they sinned once they knew the Lord.

This is what I'm saying that a Christian can sin in his life. However, the sin should not appear every day. If the sin appears every day, then we are in an addiction of some sort. If we are in an addiction, then we need to pray and ask God for freedom from the addiction.

What I'm trying to say, is that we should not sin every single day. If we do sin, then what are different from an unsaved person?

What I'm saying that a Christian can sin once in a while, because the Christian did was not on guard. But the Christian should not sin regularly. Also, the Christian try his best to not sin.

wwjd.usa 10-03-2008 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh (Post 8862)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwjd.usa
...John 13
"10Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

11For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean."

Whenever Jesus refers to clean, he refers that the disciples lived without sin at that time

This has nothing to do with them living sinless lives, it's about them being justified by their faith in Christ.

This shows that when the disciples took the communion, all of the desciples were clean and without sin, except Judas Iscoriot. Iff the disciples sinned every five minutes, then Jesus could not say that all eleven of the disciples are clean.

How do you exaplain the phrase "go and sin no more" (John 5:14)

fundy 10-03-2008 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa (Post 8894)
I plan to obtain God's will. However, it's very hard not to sin, but with God, all things are possible

Hi wwjd.usa,

Thanks for answering my question. This answer, along with statements made by you in other posts make it clear that you are following a works based gospel.

Whithout getting too personal, I would be interested to know what type of grounding you have had in Biblical study....were you involved with the Jehovas Witness's, Mormons or maybe have a Catholic background?

In the meantime take the time to read carefully Hebrew chapter 10, at least 3 times, slowly and with concentration on each and every WORD that God wrote there.

fundy

wwjd.usa 10-03-2008 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fundy (Post 8900)
Hi wwjd.usa,

Thanks for answering my question. This answer, along with statements made by you in other posts make it clear that you are following a works based gospel.

Whithout getting too personal, I would be interested to know what type of grounding you have had in Biblical study....were you involved with the Jehovas Witness's, Mormons or maybe have a Catholic background?

In the meantime take the time to read carefully Hebrew chapter 10, at least 3 times, slowly and with concentration on each and every WORD that God wrote there.

fundy

Well, I read the Bible, and through the Bible, I form my doctrines. I am involved in two Bible schools, but I have found some biblical contradictions in
them. So I don't rely on the Bible schools anymore to form my doctrines. However, I still will finish the Bible school to receive certificates and college credits. I like to talk to other people who have different biblical beliefs, in order to see if I have a misunderstanding of the Bible.

Really, if you come to my church, it would be hard to place a specific denomination on it. So we are non-denominational.

What denomination are you?

wwjd.usa 10-03-2008 05:56 PM

Today, at the church, people were discussing different topics. One person said that almost every day, Saten sends thoughts of sin to us. If we reject the thought, we have not sinned. If we accept the thought, we did sin.

For example, a person often recieves thoughts to lie, steal, commit adultry, or to do any sin. If the person accept the thought, and thinks, "This is a good idea", then the person has sinned. If the person rejects the thought, and thinks " Saten, get away from me", then the person did not sin.

If you think about it, this is exactly what happened to Jesus when he was tempted. Since Jesus rejected all of the thought of saten, Jesus did not sin. I mean common, Jesus had thoughts of suicide, pride, lust of material possesions, and some other bad thoughts. Since Jesus rejected all of those thoughts, he did not sin.

If a person says that he sins every days, then it's either the person misunderstands the Bible, or really does sin every day.

If the person misunderstands the Bible, then that person thinks that he has sinned when a bad thought entered his brain. The person thinks that he that even thought he has rejected the though, he has sinned. However, that is not true. For if a person rejects a sinful thought, then the person has not sinned.

If really does sin every day, then the person accepts every sinful thought that enters his brain every day.

Forrest 10-03-2008 06:20 PM

wwjd...I see now that your greatest need is to truly know the holiness, righteousness, purity, perfection, power, glory, might, strength, honor, riches, and eternal existence of God which is revealed to us in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

When you, "...grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever" (2 Peter 3:18), then and only then will you know how utterly wretched we are in our present mortal condition and understand that Jesus alone is our righteousness and victory!

Here Am I 10-03-2008 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa (Post 8896)
I disagree, that once a person is saved, that he's saved forever. This is what my baptist friend tells me. He says that a person needs to go to the church, become saved. After that the person is saved, the person can go into the world, sin as much as possible, and would still end up in heaven.
I disagree with this.

I disagree with the idea that it's okay to sin, once you get saved. Jesus did say "Go and sin no more." But if you think that you can lose your salvation, tell me, how did you get it? Did you earn your salvation? Or did Jesus do the work for you?

If you worked to get saved, then you could lose your salvation. However, since Jesus did all the work, He keeps our salvation, and we cannot lose it even if we wanted to, and tried to.
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:28, 29)


Quote:

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa (Post 8897)
But David , NOah or Moses did not Sin every day, did they? It was very rare that they sinned once they knew the Lord.

How do you know this? Could you cite the Scripture that leads you to believe this? :confused:

Quote:

This is what I'm saying that a Christian can sin in his life. However, the sin should not appear every day. If the sin appears every day, then we are in an addiction of some sort. If we are in an addiction, then we need to pray and ask God for freedom from the addiction.
If we sin the same sin over and over, then we need to not just ask for forgiveness and cleansing (1 John 1:9) but should ask the Lord to help us overcome it. We need to turn away from the sin.

Quote:

What I'm trying to say, is that we should not sin every single day. If we do sin, then what are different from an unsaved person?
If we do sin, when we do sin, we have an Advocate, Someone to plead our cause, and we have Someone Who not only forgives and cleanses us, but helps us overcome the sinful flesh we live in.

And we know where we're going when we die, and we know He won't let us go...ever. We belong to Him.
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 17:21)


Quote:

...Also, the Christian try his best to not sin.
"Go and sin no more." Yes. I agree

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa (Post 8899)
This shows that when the disciples took the communion, all of the desciples were clean and without sin, except Judas Iscoriot. Iff the disciples sinned every five minutes, then Jesus could not say that all eleven of the disciples are clean.

They were clean, washed of their sins, by their faith. However, they, as we, pick up daily dirt on our feet, we 'sin' in little ways even if we're very good. That's why we need to ask the Lord to forgive us and to cleanse us, daily, to get the 'dirt' off our feet.

Quote:

How do you exaplain the phrase "go and sin no more" (John 5:14)
Look above. If I was not clear, ask me again. :)

Scott Simons 10-04-2008 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forrest (Post 8863)
Brother Scott, you make a good observation. The Scripture no longer calls the believer a "sinner". We are "saints", "righteous", "redeemed", "sanctified", "purified", "sanctified", "forgiven", "washed", "cleansed", and "dead to sin".

But at the same time we still do, say, and think sinful acts, unrighteousness, and ungodliness.



Isn't this what POTW is really saying? In Christ we are "perfect", "pure", "sanctified", "holy", "unblameable", and "unreprovable". Yet, I also know the daily and practical temptations, struggles, and wretchedness of my mortal life. The battle between the "flesh" and the "Spirit".

Scott, I think you and People are saying the same thing. Both aspects apply. Our position in Christ is absolutely perfect. Our daily mortal life is still plagued with sins of thought, word, and deed.

I think Romans 6, 7, and 8 deal with both sides of the issue.

We conclude then that,

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" (Isaiah 64:6).

Peace and love, Brethren.

Forrest, thanks for noticing my point and expounding on it.
We sometime are so enmeshed with our short comings we just continue in our own view of ourselves rather that acknowledging how God see us.

God is not lying his saint are not sinners, they are washed, cleaned and filled with the Holy Ghost.

Scott Simons 10-04-2008 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway (Post 8858)
First of Scott

Thanks for that, I hope you feel better now getting that anger of your chest.





Follow after perfection, Christ is perfect follow him, strive toward perfection, not become perfect.




Now you listen very carefully here as I shall say this to you only the once.
I sin every day, I struggle with sin every day, sin almost ended my life many days when I was not right with God. The LORD JESUS CHRIST saved me from my sins, those that I had done, am doing and will do. My soul is bought and payed for, but in this mortal life sin is ever present and all around and I will stumble and I will fall, and my LORD will forgive me and I will get back on my feet and keep following the path of righteousness.

Proverbs 24:16
For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
Ecclesiastes 7:20
For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.



There is a certain hissss behind that statement and the subtle sting of venom. I do not apologies for making you sick, to claim I am saved by the Blood of Christ and I still sin.



Yes I have lied, and yes it made me a liar, and I asked my Saviour to forgive me. Yes I have got drunk, I was a drunk and yes that made me a drunk. David was a righteous man and he sinned, Moses was a righteous man and he sinned, Noah walked with God and he sinned.

Your posts are fueled with venom Scott, I don't know if you just have something against me but It sure seems that way.
As the Bible commands I will ask for another witness to back up your accusation that makes you sick.

Before you claim to be a Lair I would revaluate your strangle belief that Lairs and Drunks will enter into the Kingdom of God let alone sinners.

You never did answer if Jesus took all you sin how much do you have?

Jesus is bigger than your sin, even if you think you are such a big sinner.

I fell sorry for you, what you call me your are walking in.

~Dedicated Service
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

be healed, be transformed, God loves you

Scott Simons 10-04-2008 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa (Post 8897)
But David , NOah or Moses did not Sin every day, did they? It was very rare that they sinned once they knew the Lord.

This is what I'm saying that a Christian can sin in his life. However, the sin should not appear every day. If the sin appears every day, then we are in an addiction of some sort. If we are in an addiction, then we need to pray and ask God for freedom from the addiction.

What I'm trying to say, is that we should not sin every single day. If we do sin, then what are different from an unsaved person?

What I'm saying that a Christian can sin once in a while, because the Christian did was not on guard. But the Christian should not sin regularly. Also, the Christian try his best to not sin.

Very good points,
How about
Psalms 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
God's word is very powerful, the traditions of men make God's word of none effect.

Josh 10-04-2008 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I (Post 8915)
I disagree with the idea that it's okay to sin, once you get saved. Jesus did say "Go and sin no more." But if you think that you can lose your salvation, tell me, how did you get it? Did you earn your salvation? Or did Jesus do the work for you?

If you worked to get saved, then you could lose your salvation. However, since Jesus did all the work, He keeps our salvation, and we cannot lose it even if we wanted to, and tried to.
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:28, 29)



How do you know this? Could you cite the Scripture that leads you to believe this? :confused:


If we sin the same sin over and over, then we need to not just ask for forgiveness and cleansing (1 John 1:9) but should ask the Lord to help us overcome it. We need to turn away from the sin.


If we do sin, when we do sin, we have an Advocate, Someone to plead our cause, and we have Someone Who not only forgives and cleanses us, but helps us overcome the sinful flesh we live in.

And we know where we're going when we die, and we know He won't let us go...ever. We belong to Him.
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 17:21)



"Go and sin no more." Yes. I agree


They were clean, washed of their sins, by their faith. However, they, as we, pick up daily dirt on our feet, we 'sin' in little ways even if we're very good. That's why we need to ask the Lord to forgive us and to cleanse us, daily, to get the 'dirt' off our feet.


Look above. If I was not clear, ask me again. :)


Amen! It says nothing about them being "sinless" at the time. They were cleansed by Christ, through their faith in Him! Judas was not cleansed because he didn't trust Christ, he was the betrayer.

peopleoftheway 10-04-2008 08:31 AM

Scott, when I said I got drunk, that was before I was right with God. I don't go out now and get drunk.

Quote:

You never did answer if Jesus took all you sin how much do you have?

Jesus is bigger than your sin, even if you think you are such a big sinner.

I fell sorry for you, what you call me your are walking in.
Quote:

be healed, be transformed, God loves you
I have whatever sin I yield my mortal body to, my soul is bought and payed for by Christs blood on the cross, PAYED FOR!
Now let me make something very clear to you, when I say that I am a "big sinner" as you put it, I am DECLARING TO THE WHOLE WORLD that Christ saved me FROM MY SINS and I Still feel wretched in his presence as I AM NOTHING and he made me something that I am not worthy of.
Please do NOT feel sorry for me, My life IS TRANSFORMED, I KNOW God's love and BY HIS STRIPES I AM HEALED.

wwjd.usa 10-04-2008 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I (Post 8915)
[b]I disagree with the idea that it's okay to sin, once you get saved. Jesus did say "Go and sin no more."[color=teal] But if you think that you can lose your salvation, tell me, how did you get it? Did you earn your salvation? Or did Jesus do the work for you?

Please read, and answer these questions:
Ok, well what if a person come to God with a clean heart, and says "God, I'm sorry that I did bad things in the past. I want my sins forgiven, and I want to be saved"

Do God forgive that person's sins at that moment?
Is the the person saved at that moment?
If the person dies the next day, would he go to heaven, or to hell?

Then a year later, the person says to God, "God I do not wish to serve you anymore. Also, I do not want to have salvation"

Is the person saved anymore?
If the person dies the next day, would he go to Heaven or to Hell?



Throught this example, I understand, that a person can have salvation, and then lose it.

Another questions, What if a saved person sins with "the unforgiveable sin"? Is that person still saved?

wwjd.usa 10-04-2008 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I (Post 8915)
[b][color=teal]Quote:
Originally Posted by wwjd.usa
But David , NOah or Moses did not Sin every day, did they? It was very rare that they sinned once they knew the Lord.

How do you know this? Could you cite the Scripture that leads you to believe this?

Well, why else would these specific sins be written in the Bible and not any other. If Noah would sin with other sins after the flood, then I'm sure that they would be mentioned.

The reason that God punished Moses, is that Moses saw the glory of God, knew God, and yet sinned. Notice that God did not punish Moses for killing, because at that time, Moses did not personally speak with God. God punished Moses when Moses knew God and sinned.

In other words, If Moses would not sin after speaking with GOD, then Moses would have entered the promise land. Since Moses did commit one sin after being so close to God, then Moses was punished, and was not able to enter the promise land.

Here Am I 10-04-2008 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa (Post 8972)
Please read, and answer these questions:

I will, to the best of my ability, but I certainly would like your input from the post in which I not only answered some of your questions, but asked for your input as well. Okay?

Quote:

Ok, well what if a person come to God with a clean heart, and says "God, I'm sorry that I did bad things in the past. I want my sins forgiven, and I want to be saved"
What do you mean 'clean heart'?

There is no prerequisite for salvation, except a willingness to admit that you are a sinner, and need the Lord to save you. It doesn't matter what horrible sins you have or have not committed, you just have to be willing to accept God's offer of salvation.


Quote:

Do God forgive that person's sins at that moment?
Is the the person saved at that moment?
If the person dies the next day, would he go to heaven, or to hell?
Yes. Yes. Heaven.

Quote:

Then a year later, the person says to God, "God I do not wish to serve you anymore. Also, I do not want to have salvation"

Is the person saved anymore?
Only God and the person know if he/she was truly saved. You and I cannot know for sure, even though we might think we can tell by their actions.

The Lord says that we are sealed unto the day of redemption when we are born again, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and have everlasting/eternal life.

No, once you are truly saved, you cannot do anything to lose it.


Quote:

If the person dies the next day, would he go to Heaven or to Hell?
If they'd been saved at some point, then they'd go to Heaven. If they just made a false profession, they'd go to Hell.

Quote:

Throught this example, I understand, that a person can have salvation, and then lose it.
Nope, there's lots of Scripture that points out that once we're saved, we remain saved. We might lose rewards for not doing the Lord's will, but He is faithful, and will never leave or forsake us.

And since we're not able to save ourselves, we're certainly not able to 'un-save' ourselves.


Quote:

Another questions, What if a saved person sins with "the unforgiveable sin"? Is that person still saved?
The only unforgiveable sin in this age is rejecting Christ. That would mean that the person is not saved, and therefore could not be 'still' saved.

Your turn. What did you think of the answers I gave you before? Do you have questions? Do you have doubts? What did you think?

wwjd.usa 10-04-2008 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I (Post 8915)
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:28, 29)[/b]

Notice, that Jesus says "neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" This says that no one will be able to steal the salvation of a peron, if the person want to be with GOd.

Keep in mind that God has given us free will. Therefore, if we are in God's hand, we have the option to stay or to leave. However, no one can forse us out of God's hand. The only way that we can leave God's hand, is if we chose to do so with our own will.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I (Post 8915)
And we know where we're going when we die, and we know He won't let us go...ever. We belong to Him. [/color]"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 17:21)[/b]

I agree, that from God's part, that he will never let us go. What about from Humans part?

What if a human want to stop being in God's hand? Does that mean that God will still hold the person in the hand?


They were clean, washed of their sins, by their faith. However, they, as we, pick up daily dirt on our feet, we 'sin' in little ways even if we're very good. That's why we need to ask the Lord to forgive us and to cleanse us, daily, to get the 'dirt' off our feet.
[/QUOTE]

Like I said about the temptations of Jesus. (Matthew 4:1-10)
That if a bad thought comes into your mind, and you accept the thought, then you sinned.
If a bad thought comes into your mind, and you reject the thought, then you do not sin.

According to your theory, Jesus sinned, while being in the desert, because there came bad thoughts into the head of Jesus.

wwjd.usa 10-04-2008 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I (Post 8974)
What do you mean 'clean heart'?

When I say "clean heart", I mean that a person really mean what he says.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I (Post 8974)

Quote:
Do God forgive that person's sins at that moment?
Is the the person saved at that moment?
If the person dies the next day, would he go to heaven, or to hell?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. Yes. Heaven.


Quote:
Then a year later, the person says to God, "God I do not wish to serve you anymore. Also, I do not want to have salvation"

Is the person saved anymore?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only God and the person know if he/she was truly saved. You and I cannot know for sure, even though we might think we can tell by their actions.

You contradict yourself. Back a moment ago, you said that if a person does repents before GOD with a clean heart, then the person is saved and will go to heaven. Now, you are saying that your not sure if the person was saved originally :confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I (Post 8974)
No, once you are truly saved, you cannot do anything to lose it.

Wow, you sound just like my friend that said "You must go to a church, and become saved. After you are saved, you can sin as much, and you won't lose your salvation."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I (Post 8974)
Quote:
If the person dies the next day, would he go to Heaven or to Hell?

If they'd been saved at some point, then they'd go to Heaven. If they just made a false profession, they'd go to Hell.

Well what if at the begining, the person truly repented and a year later, the person truly did not want God.

You know, If you read the explanition of this parable, then you will see that some people truly come to God, and then fall away from God(Mat 13:20-21)
The parable is in Matthew 13:18-23


Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I (Post 8974)
Quote:
Another questions, What if a saved person sins with "the unforgiveable sin"? Is that person still saved?

The only unforgiveable sin in this age is rejecting Christ. That would mean that the person is not saved, and therefore could not be 'still' saved.

What I was refering to was Matthew 12:32.
I was trying to ask "What if a saved person speaketh against the Holy Ghost?"
Is he still saved or not

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I (Post 8974)
Your turn. What did you think of the answers I gave you before? Do you have questions? Do you have doubts? What did you think?

You have said many things. Please post the messages that I have left out. Thanks.

Here Am I 10-04-2008 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa (Post 8975)
Notice, that Jesus says "neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" This says that no one will be able to steal the salvation of a peron, if the person want to be with GOd.

You're reading something into the verse that is not there, brother (sister?):

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one." (John 10:28-30)

Where does it say "If the person wants to be with God"? It doesn't.

Where does it infer "If the person wants to be with God"? It doesn't.

What does it say?

1) God gives us eternal life
2) We will never perish
3) No man can pluck them out of God's hand
4) God the Father, is greater than all
5) No man can pluck them out of God's hand
6) Jesus the Son and God the Father are one

It does not say that we "will never perish unless we decide to not be with God anymore".

Also, there's the difficulty of being forever sealed and indwelt:


"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30)

Sealed until the day of redemption.

We also are part of Jesus once we are His, so how could we 'undo' that merger with the most powerful being in the universe? Is any of us that mighty?

"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." (2 Timothy 1:12)

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." (John 17:11)

"Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22)

God 'keeps' us, and 'seals' us once we are born again.


Quote:

Keep in mind that God has given us free will. Therefore, if we are in God's hand, we have the option to stay or to leave. However, no one can forse us out of God's hand. The only way that we can leave God's hand, is if we chose to do so with our own will.
Do you really think that God is so incompetent that He cannot 'keep' His children, as He has promised?

Why are you so eager to prove that you can lose your salvation? Is it because you feel that you have to do something in order to keep it?

If that were so, then what was the point of Jesus dying on the cross? I mean, if you have to do something like keep the Commandments in order to keep your salvation, then you're making my Lord and Saviour into a pretty poor administrator of His grace and mercy.

Most people I have met who insist that they have to 'do' something in order to 'keep' their salvation or even to 'earn' it, are trying to 'save' themselves, making the cross of none effect, basically saying that they don't need God to do anything, they can handle their own salvation, thankyouverymuch....

And do not forget...


"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinthians 6:19,20)

Once you have given yourself to God, have been born again, YOU ARE NOT YOUR OWN, YOU ARE BOUGHT (and owned) BY GOD.

So, who is any one of us to say that our life is our own, once we have been saved?

Once we are bought by His blood, He cannot deny us.
"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." (2 Timothy 2:13)


Quote:

I agree, that from God's part, that he will never let us go. What about from Humans part?

What if a human want to stop being in God's hand? Does that mean that God will still hold the person in the hand?
See my Scripture above...God will NEVER leave or forsake you, you are kept forever once you are saved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I
They were clean, washed of their sins, by their faith. However, they, as we, pick up daily dirt on our feet, we 'sin' in little ways even if we're very good. That's why we need to ask the Lord to forgive us and to cleanse us, daily, to get the 'dirt' off our feet.

Quote:

Like I said about the temptations of Jesus. (Matthew 4:1-10)
That if a bad thought comes into your mind, and you accept the thought, then you sinned.
If a bad thought comes into your mind, and you reject the thought, then you do not sin.

According to your theory, Jesus sinned, while being in the desert, because there came bad thoughts into the head of Jesus.
Now, where did you get that from my words?

Here Am I 10-04-2008 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I
What do you mean 'clean heart'?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa (Post 8977)
When I say "clean heart", I mean that a person really mean what he says.

So, you mean 'sincere'. Okay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa
Do God forgive that person's sins at that moment?
Is the the person saved at that moment?
If the person dies the next day, would he go to heaven, or to hell?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I
Yes. Yes. Heaven.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa
Then a year later, the person says to God, "God I do not wish to serve you anymore. Also, I do not want to have salvation"

Is the person saved anymore?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I
Only God and the person know if he/she was truly saved. You and I cannot know for sure, even though we might think we can tell by their actions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa
You contradict yourself. Back a moment ago, you said that if a person does repents before GOD with a clean heart, then the person is saved and will go to heaven. Now, you are saying that your not sure if the person was saved originally

No, I'm not saying that. If the person is truly saved, I do not think a year later they would say "I do not want to have salvation". To me, that indicates that the person probably was not saved, but only God and the person know for sure. It's not a contradiction, friend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I
No, once you are truly saved, you cannot do anything to lose it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa
Wow, you sound just like my friend that said "You must go to a church, and become saved. After you are saved, you can sin as much, and you won't lose your salvation."

LOL! I sound like your friend in that I said once saved, you won't lose your salvation.

The rest you added, I did not say it.

I've already addressed the 'sin as much' as you want, idea, in a previous post.

Nice try. :D


Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I
If they'd been saved at some point, then they'd go to Heaven. If they just made a false profession, they'd go to Hell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa
Well what if at the begining, the person truly repented and a year later, the person truly did not want God.

You're really stuck on the idea of someone not wanting to be saved a year after supposedly getting saved.

Let me ask you three questions:

When did you get born again?

Has it been a year, yet?

Do you want to be 'unsaved'?

Just curious, it seems to border on an obsession with you.


Quote:

You know, If you read the explanition of this parable, then you will see that some people truly come to God, and then fall away from God(Mat 13:20-21)
I just re-read that passage, and I don't see anything about people truly coming to God and then falling away. Are you sure you mean that passage of Scripture? :confused:

I'll answer the rest in a bit, I'd like to see your response, first.
:)

Here Am I 10-04-2008 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa (Post 8977)
You have said many things. Please post the messages that I have left out. Thanks.

Well, you asked many things, I was just trying to answer them.

I await your answers to my answers to your questions...
:D

fundy 10-04-2008 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa (Post 8903)
Well, I read the Bible, and through the Bible, I form my doctrines. I am involved in two Bible schools, but I have found some biblical contradictions in
them. So I don't rely on the Bible schools anymore to form my doctrines. However, I still will finish the Bible school to receive certificates and college credits. I like to talk to other people who have different biblical beliefs, in order to see if I have a misunderstanding of the Bible.

Really, if you come to my church, it would be hard to place a specific denomination on it. So we are non-denominational.

What denomination are you?

I am a member of an independant Baptist Church. While denominations in and of themselves are not important, the denomination that a Church identifies itself as is usually a good indication of the doctrinal direction that the congregation follows. I dont wish to be offensive to you in saying this,but
non-denominational churches can more often than not be better described as "non-directional", in my opinion.

This is the impression that I get about you from reading your posts. You seem to believe that it is your effort in obtaining Gods approval that is the primary factor in your salvation rather than Christs sacrifice, and that it is your own efforts rather than Christs that keeps you saved.

This is not the Gospel of Christ, it is the gospel of cults such as the Jehovas Witnesses and other groups that do not hold the KJB as the final authority in all things.

Hopefully you will read and understand the many good replies given to you by Bible believing Christians here on this site and you will come to a true understanding and acceptance of salvation.

fundy

Diligent 10-06-2008 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwjd.usa (Post 8972)
Please read, and answer these questions:
Ok, well what if a person come to God with a clean heart, and says "God, I'm sorry that I did bad things in the past. I want my sins forgiven, and I want to be saved"

Do God forgive that person's sins at that moment?

The problem is, no such person exists.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

If you think someone has to have a "clean heart" to be saved, then you've put salvation out of reach. Your works-based gospel is false from the first assumption.

KingJamesReader 10-26-2008 06:49 PM

I think we are to try as hard as we can to live as perfect as we can and please God in every way. I think for us ( as human beings ) to as perfect as Christ would be close to impossible because Jesus was perfect in every way. He came to do the will of His Father and nothing or no one would stop him and He did just that ! Living a godly live, as a light in the darkness, shining for the sinners, leading them and guiding them in the direction, away from evil, to the Lord through our faith and trust in God.

Forrest 10-28-2008 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingJamesReader (Post 10156)
I think we are to try as hard as we can to live as perfect as we can and please God in every way. I think for us ( as human beings ) to as perfect as Christ would be close to impossible because Jesus was perfect in every way. He came to do the will of His Father and nothing or no one would stop him and He did just that ! Living a godly live, as a light in the darkness, shining for the sinners, leading them and guiding them in the direction, away from evil, to the Lord through our faith and trust in God.

Hello King James Reader. Here is a thread I think you'll enjoy reading and benefit from. The somewhat "lengthy" post is #3, by JMWHALEN, located at:

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=629

stephanos 10-28-2008 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forrest (Post 10298)
Hello King James Reader. Here is a thread I think you'll enjoy reading and benefit from. The somewhat "lengthy" post is #3, by JMWHALEN, located at:

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=629

LOL, JMWHALEN is such a blessing!

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen


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