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I am not sure where you get the idea that those in the lake of fire will be out of God's presence when the scriptures say,
Rev 14:10, 11 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: The Lamb is God |
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"Depart from me" is not "in the presence of"... Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:The location of the Lamb in eternity is the new Jerusalem... Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.Christ dwells in the light... 1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.The wicked are cast into outer darkness... Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. |
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
The first thing I notice when I read these verses in context is that these events takes place DURING the Tribulation. The tormenting in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb in verse 10 could be only during that specific time frame. Then in verse 11 it's "the smoke of their torment" which ascends for ever and ever, that doesn't have to mean they will be in the Lamb's presence for ever and ever. |
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If I go out on the pool deck and observe my hamburgers on the grill at 7:30 p.m. then return to my living room at 7:45, the hamburgers have been grilled "in my presence," but that doesn't mean I have to keep watching them forever. It's a terrible illustration, but hey it's almost dinner time here. Quote:
After all, it was the testimony of the man who was clinically dead who convinced the physician to seek a deeper knowledge of God in the Bible. That is undeniable. There were no drugs involved in this death experience. In the end, the experience didn't REVEAL God, it simply revealed a literal place called hell. Neither the doctor nor the patient was seeking a sign, nor were either of them "searching" for God. But that fellow saw something very real after he was clinically dead, and that's exactly what Bro. Ruckman believes too. It's a powerful little book, written by a respected cardiologist and recommended by Ruckman. See link below... "This isn't one of those books written by some quack out in left field, this one is written by a doctor, and one who has brought the dead back to life on more than one occasion. Here in this shocking book, people who have died and been brought back to life give their accounts as to what happened to them on "The Other Side". There is a Heaven, and there is a Hell, and once you read the true accounts from these ordinary people, you'll understand why you need to make a decision concerning Jesus Christ. Many of the folks in this book detail the horrors of Hell , and many share the warm loving and peaceful experience of Heaven. I have bought a number of copies of this book, and each time I lend a copy to a friend, it is never seen again. After one reads it, they share it with another , and then another and so on. This book will make you stop and think about death and about the after life." http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Deaths-.../dp/0553229702 |
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How about some Bible verses and not private interpretations.
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"For the wrath of God is REVEALED from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath SHEWED IT unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse..." Rom. 1:18-20 |
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I guess what I'm trying to get across here is that I don't think God uses supernatural/paranormal experiences to lead men to Christ, such as near-death cases. Sure, He might shake up the reality of some people through bad accidents and funerals, etc, but give them a vision of heaven or hell? I just don't believe it. It could always be the Devil they're seeing as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14)?? |
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The book contends that the man ACTUALLY DIED, and he WENT TO HELL. This happens every day, perhaps every second. As I understand it approximately 146,357 people die each day (that's about 2 per second), I'm sure you would agree that a percentage of them are going to hell. This is REAL, that part we agree on. What you are having a problem with is that one of them could COME BACK and TELL OTHERS ABOUT IT. This is certainly not common, it is highly unusual, but I'm not ready to say it could never happen. It happened to Jonah, so it is not completely outside the realm of the Biblical record. God allowed Jairus’ Daughter to come back, as He did with Lazarus. Those events were all REAL. I think all of this you would agree with. So what's left? You are assuming they did not remember anything about it, and you are assuming they never told anyone about what they experienced, but the Bible doesn't say that, that is only an assumption. Who am I to say it can never happen. So the patient is on the floor and he is dead. The first chapter tells how Dr. Rawlings then inserted an electrical pacemaker wire into the vein under his collar bone and manipulated it through the venous system until the wire was dangled directly inside the man's heart, which shocked or stimulated the patient back into a living state. At that point, the guy started screaming about being in hell and telling the doctor to pray for him because he was in great fear of going back into the fire. This was no vision, no drugs or pain killers were involved, the book contends it really happened and this is what the medical doctor is writing about. Funny thing was, at this point the doctor was a devout atheist! :) |
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Something else that crossed my mind...according to that book, did anyone actually face God when they died? What do you believe about Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"? For years we've been preaching that when a man dies he immediately finds himself standing before God in judgment, then it's either to heaven or hell. If this isn't the case, and a person's soul goes straight to hell when they die in their sins, do you think that this judgment after death is a reference to the great white throne judgment that take place at least 1007+ years in the future? More food for thought. Are you hungry? |
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If hell and destruction (the lake of fire is eternal destruction) is before him then it is in his presence forever and ever |
2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
I don't discount the fact that God is omnipresent and that the Bible teaches He is in hell and heaven (Psalms 139:8), but being in "the presence of the Lord" is something different, it looks like it refers to being in close proximity to the Godhead or the physical manifestation of the Lord: Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.Aside from Revelation 14:10, which we've discussed, the scripture I've quoted in this thread doesn't support the lake of fire being "in the presence of the Lord" in eternity. Not that it won't be "before Him", for He sees everything, I just don't think it will be located right there in front of His throne "in His presence". |
I never said is was right there in front of the throne. but he is as big as his heaven which is a lot larger than our universe.
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As I read through all of this thread I saw many guesses as to hell and it's location. lots of links to works of men. I saw George had given a good study on the spirit and on the dead. I was waiting to see if any of you would indeed take the next step and first do a study on hell so that you would have some ground on which to build you ideas.
you made some good observations but no one did any study on hell. so here goes. I realize some of you could do a better job than I. Quote:
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Yep, I figure it has to be the great white throne judgment in the future. I don't think the confidence for believers in 2 Corinthians 5:8 applies to all men. When the unrepentant die they are placed "on second death row" into a temporary holding place (prison) to suffer until they are judged down the road. Sadly, they have no advocate with the Father, only the accuser. The very name of Satan means "the accuser." |
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Like I said before, the "location" of these things is a bit cloudy. |
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Amos 4:11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 12 Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel. When an unsaved man's soul leaves his body, surely God explains to him why he is sending him to hell, and that explanation in itself would be a judgment. |
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Day and night would signify that it is taking place Now until Rev 20:2. and during the 7 year Great Tribulation. the woman mentioned at the beginning of this chapter and at the end is Israel. who is spoken of in Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. He most definitely could not be at the Great White throne Judgement accusing anyone. |
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the belief that Satan or any being is in charge of hell comes not from the Bible but from Greek, Roman and Norse mythology just to name a few. Dante's Inferno also supports such. All world mythologies except Afircan have a hell type place. Jews had a two compartment, the Greek had a multi compartment as did Rome, and Norse had nine with a half blue face half black faced Hel in charge while there may indeed be a personage in charge they are not there to torment anyone or torture as Kenneth Copland, Hagen, or Elizabeth Baxter claims in her book "Divine Revelation of Hell". For the flames and the worm are appointed for that purpose We know that Angels are given the escorts for lost to cast them into the Lake of Fire. for we are told that the angles gather them like sticks and cast hem into the fire. |
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http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2...cal/Rosie2.jpg |
If i put my money on it. I would say God is in charge of The lake of fire or eternal punishment.
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The eternal land grant to Abraham is found in Genisis 17:1-8. 1 ¶ And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 ¶ As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 ¶ And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. Grace and peace brother. Tony |
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Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. So it looks like it WILL be burning during the Millennium. Quote:
He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant: Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance: God keeps his promises. You could be right about the geography of the new earth, with the land of promise being in the same location. I'll keep in mind your comments about the Dead Sea, I'm not completely dismissing the theory. |
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Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me." - Psalm 139:7-10 |
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Buddy, you want to see some hateful, vicious people, there is(was?) a forum called the "Fighting Funsadametalist Forum", most hate filled bunch of people I ever saw. I wasn't there long, but noticed most the messages were from 2005 and none after. They remind me of that bunch of rednecks who bashed Jack Nicholson's head in with axe handles towards the end of EASY RIDER. Brother, you and Stephen think I'm off the wall about the location of the lake of fire, you ain't heard my belief on "ghosts" and the "cold spot", he he. Hey, it's all good. Grace and peace to you Tony |
I like what Kiwi said also
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Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. So, as Kiwi said, perhaps this "sea" or waters above the firmament will no longer exist. I gotta tell you, as a fellow that grew up on the beach in Florida who used to surf, I am hoping the seas will still be here. I don't know if we'll be allowed to do things like surfing in heaven, but I sure hope so. :) We do know there is water in heaven Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. |
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we only act that way when liberal Christians come in here and attack the KJV... :boxing: |
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Bro. Parrish I have written ye in a small letter and depart with two questions: Is the weapons of our warfare carnal? And has the long held secret that will destroy Christianity, one indeed more damaging than The Da Vinci Code, has it leaked out, to wit, that poor old dumb God has finally succumbed to Alzheimers; He wrote these manuscripts and forgot where He put them... ...is that why we need all theses "doctors"? Woe is me. Woe is we Jesus wept. grace and peace ynoT:jaw: |
LOL Brother Tony, I would love to respond to that, but I'm going to need someone to translate it so I can understand exactly what you wrote.... :confused:
Forgive me brother, I have been out on the lake riding the Sea-Doos today and I am kind of exhausted. |
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I told him that he was not suppose to be LOOKING AT ME, but the words on the page of THIS BOOK. I thanked him for the knife and walked back to the booth. Bro. Parrish, I'm a tobacco using, gun-owning heterosexual(a rare type in America)who thinks Ted Nugent is easy listening music and am a fan of drag racing. I see no reason to be Pat Boone on the outside while I am Count Dracula inside. I guess my point is you never know who's gonna pop up claiming to believe the KJV is the inspired word of God, and there are many who will claim to be willing to take a knife for Jesus and those who actually will. So much for me. He must increase while I decrease. Given that background though woe be unto he who cometh forth claiming only the original manuscripts are inspired. I threw bikers out of bars after disarming them then later years witnessed to them, so White, Kutelik, and Hudson are a Trio Of Miniscule Swine going squee squee squee. I hope you had a laugh brother, I don't do the Skee Doo, I can't swim. Grace and peace my friend Tony |
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I never took a knife from a guy but I did almost get a beating in front of an abortion clinic one time (that was as close as I have ever come to a demon possessed bunch for sure). I salute you for your honesty Bro. Tony, a.k.a. Count Dracula! :D |
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18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. I would feel in a bit of a predicament were that to happen to me in lieu of the above Scripture Bro. Parrish, Doc Ruckman is not the only one trained in akido. One brother once told me I was a lot like Peter. A bit passionate is the context. But Paul says also to in the same chapter to offer ourselves as a living sacrifice for the gospel's sake. We don;t go out to witness with the intent of turning it into a brawl, as Satan would like to happen. The pastor of the church we attended for reasons unknown ended church support of the street ministry. We never got it off the ground again. In the months prior we had one man, a janitor, who drunkenly berated us in the most foul language, tired to embarrass the women, brandish a mop at us. I suppressed my Dracula-like tendencies and we just waited on God. We continued with no incidents, save for rocks and bottles and fluids in baggies. The very last night we were down there, this man came to my brother, the six foot+ exMarine, with tears in his eyes he apologized and said for us "...not to leave him, alone there..." I told him with God, you are never alone. My buddy witnessed to him with more tears, THAT made the entire sum total of abuse we took worth it. THAT was the power of God happening right there. To change a heart is the hardest thing to do, not exceed the speed of light or balance the national budget. We're seated in heavenly places already. We could just be Calvinists and sit back and do nothing. We need to ignore the abuse and be compassionate with these people and compassionate to them. If taking a punch or a slash with a knife would help someone avoid hell, well, Paul said he'd gladly be damned in exchange for Israel's salvation. We walk by faith and not by sight, but nothing edifies another Christian so much as to let them witness to a lost person. If a Christian don't love sinners then they need to write tracts, wax the church floors, bake pies for the charity auctions. Arthur Blessit logged 36,000 miles on FOOT for sinners, Jesus Christ died for them. What's so hard for us? I never saw that drunk again, I hope someday I see him kneeling at Christ's feet where I can join him. Grace and peace brother A Kinder, Gentler Tony |
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What always has, and probably always will, bug me, is the fact that 20-50-100 professing Bible-believing Christians come together in the same local church services every week, hear the same sermons, read the same Bible, experience the same blessings when together, yet only a few of them are actively serving the Lord through the church ministries? We can all say amen to the preacher in unison, we can all sing the hymns out loud and praise the Lord, yet only a few turn up on the streets to preach & witness, only a few get to church early and enjoy the extra fellowship & prayer, only a few learn their memory verses every week...I won't rant on. "What's so hard for us" you ask, I suppose it's that 'dying daily' business that Paul spoke about. The older I grow the more of a mystery other peoples (Christians) hearts are to me. |
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